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Author Topic: Corrections for Pilawski's book  (Read 44584 times)
learstang
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« Reply #90 on: November 02, 2012, 09:54:22 PM »

Well, you have to admit, Konstantin, that his profiles are nicely drawn, even if often inaccurate, so he is a good artist, if not a good historian.  I think Massimo has provided a good antidote to this, with good and much more accurate profiles.

Regards,

Jason
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #91 on: November 02, 2012, 10:05:59 PM »

I hope so...
Regards
Massimo
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KL
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« Reply #92 on: November 05, 2012, 07:02:03 PM »

Well, you have to admit, Konstantin, that his profiles are nicely drawn, even if often inaccurate, so he is a good artist, if not a good historian

Yes, I admit that his profiles are nicely drawn!  He is a good (digital) artist, but I also find that he is a hopelessly bad historian.

His flawed ?research? makes many of his profiles useless and misleading ? people should be aware of that - his profiles are nice but wrong and misleading.

He should be drawing Luftwaffe? 46 planes or sci-fi spaceships ? In those cases he could utilize both his fantasy and digital graphic skills.   Why is he trying to draw historically accurate profiles from a period and country that he vaguely understands?  His historian?s hat can?t help!

With his historian?s hat on, he looks like a clown.

Regards,
KL
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learstang
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« Reply #93 on: November 05, 2012, 10:23:12 PM »

I agree with that, Konstantin.  To be honest, when I do 3D art, I enjoy doing science-fiction because nobody can tell me I'm wrong!  Unfortunately, many of the profiles that are out there regarding VVS aircraft, and not just from Mr. Pilawskii, seem to be more science-fiction than fact.

Regards,

Jason
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KL
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« Reply #94 on: November 16, 2012, 07:19:51 PM »

From: http://www.redbanner.co.uk/History/ace_aircraft/pokrovskiy/Pokrovskiy_Yak.html

Quote
With my Historian hat on, I must argue that the least complex suggestion is the one which might best circulate with regards to the usual discussion of the appearance of this aircraft.

Some suggestions for Red Banner author:




« Last Edit: November 16, 2012, 09:28:26 PM by Massimo Tessitori » Logged
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #95 on: November 16, 2012, 09:30:31 PM »

Hi Konstantin,
I've preferred to remove the last two ones, the joke is becoming too heavy.
Regards
Massimo
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KL
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« Reply #96 on: November 16, 2012, 11:23:41 PM »

Hi Konstantin,
I've preferred to remove the last two ones, the joke is becoming too heavy.
Regards
Massimo

Heavy, but good!!!   Grin

Hat is a must for aviation historians, this is supposedly Dana Bell, an eminent aviation historian and author (according to http://janusmuseum.org/panabasis/feb06.htm )


« Last Edit: November 17, 2012, 05:43:37 AM by KL » Logged
JP
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« Reply #97 on: November 29, 2012, 05:42:38 AM »

I have to admit, I laughed at the hats...would be funny to have one.
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KL
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« Reply #98 on: February 27, 2013, 06:57:38 PM »

Any effort to explain VVS colours is commendable.  One attempt is available at
http://www.fritzthefox.com/soviet_camo_guide.html
I am posting it here because it's a condensed Pilawskii's philosophy.  Author of this web page read Pilawskii's book and he draw wrong conclusions:

Camouflage of the Russian Air Force, or VVS (which is an ancronym for some long Russian words which are hard to pronounce even in your head) was largely determined at the factory level. The NKAP, or People's Commissariat for the Aviation Industry, finally got around to issuing templates to the factories around 1943, but like most government efforts at micromanagement, they were largely ignored. Paints used were often whatever was available, and patriotic slogans could often be found scrawled on the planes by the workers who built them.

The latest authoritative word on the subject is Erik Pilawskii's "Soviet Air Force Fighter Colors 1941-1945".


Corrections:
Camouflage (meaning 2 or 3 colour disruptive pattern) was required by VVS during the war, it wasn't determined at the factory level!  Factories actually didn't have any influence in this matter:
- VVS was the buyer (VVS placed orders for planes)
- NKAP (ministry of aviation industry) was the seller - NKAP formally owned factories
- Factories were the contractors - they fulfilled the orders

First camouflage templates were issued in 1941, not in 1943!

Factories could not ignore VVS requirements! Factories did not ignore VVS requirements!
If you order a white car at the dealership and if dealership ignores your request and delivers pink car; you probably would not pay the car.  Same with VVS camouflage:  each plane was received by VVS commission - how can factory ignore requested camouflage??

Planes were not painted with "whatever was available"!
  
Patriotic slogans were written in VVS units by pilots and mechanics, not by the workers who built them.  Only exception were planes donated by groups or individuals - because donors paid for the planes and they requested slogans at the factories.  Make sense?

I'll leave to the others to comment amusing and humorous illustrations:




« Last Edit: February 27, 2013, 07:01:14 PM by KL » Logged
learstang
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« Reply #99 on: February 27, 2013, 07:28:06 PM »

Wow, is all I can say!  Someone needs to point this poor gentleman (good for him at least trying) to this site for some accurate information on VVS colours.

Regards,

Jason
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John Thompson
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« Reply #100 on: February 27, 2013, 10:23:35 PM »

You guys can't be serious - it's not a good try or a commendable effort, it's a complete crock, and an insult to anyone who's serious about the subject. A statement like "VVS (which is an ancronym (sic) for some long Russian words which are hard to pronounce even in your head)" shows disrespect and lack of any real interest. It looks like he decided to create some kind of children's guide to WWII camouflage and realized at the last minute that he should throw in something about Russian aircraft. Not all of this can be blamed on Pilawskii's book, no matter how he credits its authority - Soviet Air Force Fighter Colours 1941-1945 didn't include much about the Il-2 or Il-4, the last time I looked at it. And to think that people will actually read and believe this "Fritz the Fox" person - I hate the Internet...  Angry

John
« Last Edit: February 27, 2013, 10:33:09 PM by John Thompson » Logged
TISO
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« Reply #101 on: February 28, 2013, 12:44:11 AM »

Fritz'es treatment of french and japanese AF colurs recived the same treatment. One could comment that Fritz "newest" books are at least 20 years old. I serously doubt that this gentelmen even saw Pilawski book. Heck even Pilawski should protest to be cited as reference on that site (not to mention guys from J-aircraft or stormo).
« Last Edit: February 28, 2013, 01:03:17 AM by TISO » Logged
KL
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« Reply #102 on: February 28, 2013, 08:41:28 PM »

You guys can't be serious - it's not a good try or a commendable effort, it's a complete crock, and an insult to anyone who's serious about the subject...
Not all of this can be blamed on Pilawskii's book, no matter how he credits its authority - Soviet Air Force Fighter Colours 1941-1945 didn't include much about the Il-2 or Il-4, the last time I looked at it.

Complete crock - nice description  Cheesy

Long time ago, after he published SAAFC, Pilawskii posted his own version of Il-2 camouflage development on his old website.  It was so fantastic/surrealistic that it can't be found there anymore.
Green-Dark Green scheme for bombers can be found even now on Pilawkii's current website



I serously doubt that this gentelmen even saw Pilawski book.

I think that Fritz actually read Pilawskii's book!  Fritz has described in two sentences Pilawskii's main idea:  Camouflage was determined at the factory level. NKAP templates were largely ignored...
Entyre SAAFC book, about 200 pages, revolves around this idea: this Zavod, that Zavod, Zavod + Zavod = Zavoda, etc...  Tongue

As I tried to explain above, it did not work that way.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2013, 08:54:09 PM by KL » Logged
John Thompson
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« Reply #103 on: February 28, 2013, 09:04:10 PM »

I think that Fritz actually read Pilawskii's book!  Fritz has described in two sentences Pilawskii's main idea:  Camouflage was determined at the factory level. NKAP templates were largely ignored...
Entyre SAAFC book, about 200 pages, revolves around this idea: this Zavod, that Zavod, Zavod + Zavod = Zavoda, etc...  Tongue

As I tried to explain above, it did not work that way.


Mmmm, yes - I had forgotten about Nadiya Bukhanova and her creative camouflage artistry... Shocked

John
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #104 on: March 01, 2013, 07:11:46 AM »

To tell the truth, the idea that the factories had their own interpretation of the camouflage has a partial truth. I can easily distinguish the factory of production of Il-2s from some details of the photos, including the camo pattern.  The sketch of 1941 was the base for the most of the types of plane, but each had its particularities.
The thing is more difficult to say for post-1943 patterns, because grey and green are often undistinguishable in photos.
Regards
Massimo
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