Corrections for Pilawski's book

[learstang]

I think the main issue of contention stems from the author's choice of how to respond to honest and well-meaning inquiring and questions relating to his work. 

I agree that that's a big part of it, JP.  When I sent some work I had done on a book on the IL-2 (still in progress, although largely completed by now) to Mario Holly, he basically marked through everything I had done on the colours.  I have to admit that I wasn't particularly thrilled by this, but I soon realised that Mario was correct, his criticisms were well-merited, and I made the appropriate changes.  I think that's how such challenges to one's work should be handled - if the critic proves to be correct, change your work and appreciate their help in making your work more accurate.

In response to your post michman, errors in VVS colours still occur today.  In a small book on the IL-2 published in Russia this year, there are profiles of the IL-2 with the entirely fictitious brown/green topsides scheme.  How much Mr. Pilawskii's work contributes to this continuing and unnecessary "confusion" over VVS colours is hard to determine, but having erroneous works in English certainly doesn't help things in the West (nor in the East, also).  I also saw the fictitious brown/green scheme appear in Flypast magazine, a British publication, in an issue that was published a few months ago.  These problems are ongoing.

Regards,

Jason
 

[michman]

Thank you both very much for your responses.

Dear Jason,

I look forward very much to your upcoming book on Il-2!


You are a native English speaker, yes? - so for your book, you will publish in English?
If yes, it will be a great new item and I am sure a great success.

I think your research and your writing is much more interesting than old stories about Aviation Tractor Green, if this may be said without giving any offense to any other colleague.

[learstang]

Thank you both very much for your responses.

Dear Jason,

I look forward very much to your upcoming book on Il-2!


You are a native English speaker, yes? - so for your book, you will publish in English?
If yes, it will be a great new item and I am sure a great success.

I think your research and your writing is much more interesting than old stories about Aviation Tractor Green, if this may be said without giving any offense to any other colleague.

Yes I am a native English speaker, michman.  I do hope it will be a great success (even a moderate success would be fine), and I'll set aside a copy for you (at a reduced price, of course ).  The book will cover mostly the modelling side of the IL-2, of which I am quite knowledgeable having seen nearly every Shturmovik kit from the last 50 years (and having built to date quite a few of them - ten to be exact), but I will also cover some of the historical aspects, and the colour section will be as accurate as I can make it.  No tractor green here, except to dispel the myth.

Regards,

Jason

[KL]

Hi Michman,

One must say that if an author does not have Russian, ...

Yes, Pilawskii is a westerner and he can?t understand Russian.

But those shouldn?t be issues!  There are western authors whose books about Soviet aviation history were well received in Russia even by experts.  For example:  new book about Aeroflot by Lennart Andersson is the best reference available in any language.  C-F Geust is an authority on Winter War and WWII Soviet aviation in general.

Language normally should not be a significant limitation:  there are translators and many Russians do speak some English.  It?s more about connecting with Russians and willingness to listen.  Steven Zaloga was mentioned on Russian forums as an example for a western author who started with many misconceptions but was willing to assimilate new information and correct his works.

It is all explained at http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic_t_6209.html

HTH!

Cheers,
KL

[mholly]

But those shouldn?t be issues!

Agreed! And you listed great examples. Especially "Zaloga's story" is the one to follow.
Problem (again) with EP is that he claimed Russian language proficiency! Indirectly though (he's smart after all), thru Matt Bittner on VVS site.
Cheers,
Mario

[mbittner]

But those shouldn?t be issues!

Agreed! And you listed great examples. Especially "Zaloga's story" is the one to follow.
Problem (again) with EP is that he claimed Russian language proficiency! Indirectly though (he's smart after all), thru Matt Bittner on VVS site.
Cheers,
Mario

Huh? Thru me on the VVS site? I don't understand.

[mholly]

Huh? Thru me on the VVS site? I don't understand.

Yes. Back then on VVS site I posted that I very seriously doubted EP's Russian language proficiency. It was meant as
a direct challenge anticipating his personal response. Then you posted reacting to this particular notion of mine, literally:
"Erik is fluent in Russian"...
Mario

[mbittner]

Ah, I see.

[KL]

Pilawskii's legacy  

Let's start with made-up colours:



either colours or colours and names are made-up (invented, fabricated) by Pilawskii!!!  These colours are absent in period technical literature.


In his book and on his websites, Pilawskii also refferes to paints that were in use in Soviet Aviation.: AII nitro laquers, AEh enamels etc.  But, in most cases colours proposed by Pilawskii are way off (wrong, missed).  We can only guess why; one possibility is that Pilawskii actually misidentified some of those with colours he saw in Monino.



AII Green is probably mixed-up with faded weatehered Army Olive Green (4BO)
AII Green (new) and AII Green (old) are pure guesswork
ALG-5 is probably mixed-up with modern interior light blue or aged A-14
AII Blue should be light blue, lighter than AMT-7
AMT-7 is "Deep sky Blue", darker than AII Blue
AE-8 is silver, not gray!
3B should be significantly darker than 4BO (or AMT-4 here)
 

What is left is pathetic - blacks, grays and white.  Not bad for b/w photo interpretation  :



Comments please???
KL

[learstang]

Once again, Konstantin, I think you've nailed it.  The sad thing of course is that Mr. Pilawskii has not learned anything (or not much, at any rate) and still continues to ply his questionable trade on his new website.  It still mystifies me why people just can't accept it when they are clearly, demonstrably wrong.

Regards,

Jason

[JP]

It still mystifies me why people just can't accept it when they are clearly, demonstrably wrong.

For that, you need to delve into psychology.  And that is best left for another website/forum.

Коля, that is a very good summary graphic on that subject.  Not to be lazy, but do we have such a handy chart featuring a summary on the current state of thought we can debate?   

[Troy Smith]

Once again, Konstantin, I think you've nailed it.  The sad thing of course is that Mr. Pilawskii has not learned anything (or not much, at any rate) and still continues to ply his questionable trade on his new website.  It still mystifies me why people just can't accept it when they are clearly, demonstrably wrong.

Regards,

Jason

Jason

It's a very good question, i'd be fascinated to meet EP and have a talk, but this from below perhaps gets to the basic problem is EP aims primarily to impress and persuade his audience, and in general is unconcerned with the truth or falsehood of his statements.   

I spent quite some time carefully writing a bit on this in this thread, http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1099.msg6694#msg6694

But the main point was this -

This I ran  across in a book "Bad Science" , which is a serious book,  but I think this sums it all up rather well.

from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_Bullshit

On Bullshit is an essay by philosopher Harry Frankfurt. Originally published in the journal Raritan in 1986, the essay was republished as a separate volume in 2005 and became a nonfiction bestseller, spending twenty-seven weeks on the New York Times Best Seller list.[1]

In the essay, Frankfurt defines a theory of bullshit, defining the concept and analyzing its applications.

Both lies and bullshit can either be true or false but bullshitters aim primarily to impress and persuade their audiences, and in general are unconcerned with the truth or falsehood of their statements (it is because of this that Frankfurt concedes that "the bullshitter is faking things", but that "this does not necessarily mean he gets them wrong").

While liars need to know the truth to better conceal it, bullshitters, interested solely in advancing their own agendas, have no use for the truth.
 
Thus, Frankfurt claims, "...bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are" (Frankfurt 61).

my added emphasis.  I didn't write this but I'm sorry to say it seems to sum up EP.
The guy claims to be a serious researcher but spits his dummy out when proved wrong, and even now is still saying the same false schemes and colours as a look at his new site shows, as you noted, still the green/brown Il-2's....  Would it be too provocative to have a "whats wrong with the new site" thread as well?

But as JP more tactfully put it, the psychology is for another site....


T

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi all,
at the end of this page it's reported something on a color found on a wreck comparable to factory green.
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/1941-43rep/1941-43repainted.html
Its origins and use are unclear.
Regards
Massimo

[KL]

Hi Troy,
your posts re Pilawskii at Britmodeller forums are really great!   

regardings the 1948 paint catalog (Pilawskii's Public Debate). It also is an excellent example of his writing 'style' which I personally find very tiresome to read.
shades of Sir Humphrey... see the first paragraph here to see what i mean
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humphrey_Appleby

You can find scans of SAAFFC online if you look, (or order inter library loan) but for the ?25+ it sells for it's essentially useless UNLESS you already know about the subject, and even then it's just a collection of photos with some useful and some wrong information written in a turgid writing style.

Thanks for the H. Frankfurt's theories.  Pilawskii perfectly fits there.   

Cheers,
KL

[KL]

thanks to Pilawskii's fans, we can see (and save for posterity) old pages from Pilawskii's web site.  Looks we can go way back in 2003!
Copy and paste into your browser entire link:
http://wayback.archive.org/web/20070801000000*/http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/

I found page "VVS colors" extremely entertaining; it's link is located in the lower left corner of the home page.  Check it out and you will find all possible combinations of green, dark green, brown and ochre, how author deciphers colours from B/W photos, the "standard old Dark Green over Green" scheme, and much, much more!!!