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early grey/grey serpentine camouflage on Yaks
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Author Topic: early grey/grey serpentine camouflage on Yaks  (Read 39375 times)
Massimo Tessitori
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« on: June 01, 2011, 11:46:18 AM »

Hi all,
looking at photos of Yaks, I am strongly suspecting that something should be rewritten.
Probably the first application of AMT-11 and 12 on many Yakovlev planes, in 1943, was made according to a different scheme that we can describe as 'serpentine'.

Image from SAFFC by EP It has often interpreted as a tricky black-green or tractor green-dark green scheme, but the photo here allows the comparison with the colors of the MiG-3, Il-2 and Pe-2, and it's clear that it can't absolutely be the same. So, it's likely that this was a first application of AMT-11/12.
Note the high contour of the AMT-7 light blue demarcation line on the fuselage sides, that encourages the interpretation as a blue-gray plane, and the early style marks.
Note the wing of a La-5, believed to be white or light grey overall.

Massimo

« Last Edit: June 01, 2011, 05:52:01 PM by Massimo Tessitori » Logged
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2011, 11:49:51 AM »


An image of a Yak-7B with the very same livery, presumably in late 1942 or early 1943.



A Yak-7b in the wind tunnel at TsAGI. The same livery is evident.


Yak-7PD of the Moscow PVO. Again the same livery... Note the funny loop on the wing.

Massimo
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2011, 11:52:32 AM »


Yak-7DI, practically the prototype of Yak-9, shows a comparable livery, possibly made with grey AMT-11 and black (or, alternatively, with the fantomatic tractor green and black).





Yak-9 c/n 0118 at NII VVS in February or March 1943. Again, it wears the serpentine livery supposedly made of AMT-11 and 12, still with old style red stars.

Massimo
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2011, 11:56:23 AM »









Four images of the first prototype of Yak-1M Moskit in the spring of 1943, with the supposed grey/grey serpentine camouflage. The second prototype had already the better known NKAP 1943 camouflage.

And that is all for now.
Regards
Massimo
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mholly
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« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2011, 02:26:53 PM »

Massimo.
Order for new camo-BOTH paints and patterns-was issued in July 1943 i.e. well after the dates you ascribe to your pictures.
More importantly, AMT-11/12 were NOT ready for mass production and distribution in July'43 and temporary formula to mix approximate shades from AMT-6 and AMT-7 was allowed. "True" camos in AMT-11/12 cannot be dated sooner than late summer 1943.
Those PATTERNS are something else however and definitely worth further consideration.
Cheers,
Mario
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #5 on: June 01, 2011, 05:43:05 PM »

Hi Mario,
I know that the order is of July 1943 and includes a new template, but take in account that Yakovlev introduced the black/green camouflage on many of his Yaks already in 1940, at least six months before it was officialized.
Quote
The NKAP order and the Air Force determined the procedure for the introduction of the new camouflage patterns in practice. Delivery of all necessary enamels should be provided by 25 July [1943]. For the release of the new camouflage fighters were scheduled from 15 July, the remaining aircraft - from 1 August, but before that date, from July 15, prescribed in the existing two-colour production machines to replace the black on dark gray. Prior to receiving the standard gray-blue and dark gray colours they were allowed to use a mixture of nitroemaley of AMT-7 (blue) and AMT-6 (black) or oil A-26m and A-28m, made by special instructions and standards of the VIAM. Such a blending of colours had never before been allowed, such was the special urgency of introducing a new camouflage. Documentary evidence of the use of mixtures of dyes were found as well as the ?special? guidelines and standards. However, to exclude their use in the initial stage of implementation of the new camouflage cannot be made. In this case, the colours of enamel might have significantly differed from the AMT-11 and AMT-12 (A-32m).
So, in July 1943 they received instructions to obtain grey paints by mixing black and light blue. They could have donr the same in late 1942. But why?

Quote
Let's see, how are we looking at wooden structure and skinned aircraft. Plywood was attached to the frame and was covered with two layers of nitrokleya. Then a thin layer of putty was applied, then again the nitrokleya layer, and finally the cloth was attached, which was covered with two layers of shpatpevki, primers layer dope AN Al (in wartime, this layer cannot be), and two layers of AMT dope.
In late 1942 - early 1943 NKHP factory in Chelyabinsk and Novosibirsk in nitroshpatlevke AL-22 short lead kroons, which is included in its composition, was replaced in iron minium. This shpatpevka was applied to aviation all winter and spring. During the summer heat the layer shpatpevki had internal stresses, causing the paint layer to crack. Through the cracks penetrated moisture, which sharply reduced the strength of the attaching skin and led to its isolation. Cracking happened for about a thousand aircraft painted with the use of this shpatpevki. ?Greshipi? this fighter Yak-7 plants,  number 153, Yak-1 plant number 292 and La-5 plants number 21 and number 99. Machines lost their fighting efficiency. Abandoned in front of the factory team for two or three weeks back in operation defective aircraft, and literally within two or three days after the completion of writes A.S. Yakovlev, began the famous battle on the Orel-Kursk direction.
Thus, the defect was the cause of poor quality coating, a formula which forcibly took the lead crowns. As can be seen, to solve the deficit problem by filling it was not possible. But the lead crowns belonged to the green enamel A-24m and AMT-4. If you cannot abandon it in the fillings, it may be to reduce the flow of paint on the [crown]?  Reserve formulae include the possibility of replacing the krona and milori with one pigment - green oxide of chromium, and chromium oxide was scarce: in 1943 according to the NKAP there was only 53.8% of the required amount.  Cannot proved and the replacement of lead krone to another - zinc: in March 1943 in ?with complete absence of zinc krone? halted production of soil ALG-1 and ALG-5. The answer remained one - drastically reduce the production of green enamel. ?Plans ...? 1943, just respond to such a solution: the most massive class of aircraft - fighters - green is missing completely, as for other machines the need for green colours was to be reduced by more than 1.6 times.
So, they have changed the wood primer with a worst one because lead was scarce, and lead was a component of AMT-4, aside chromium oxide that was scarce too. So, there is a reason for an anticipation of what was later officialized.
Again, the only other alternative interpretation that I see is the one of tractor green, because the lighter color clearly isn't the same AMT-4 of the other planes of the first photo.
Couldn't anyone ask the opinion of the Russian colleagues on the interpretation of these photos?
Regards
Massimo
« Last Edit: June 01, 2011, 05:46:50 PM by Massimo Tessitori » Logged
KL
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« Reply #6 on: June 01, 2011, 07:59:00 PM »

Again, the only other alternative interpretation that I see is the one of tractor green...
Regards
Massimo

Massimo, there was no Tractor Green
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #7 on: June 01, 2011, 09:42:24 PM »

Quote
Massimo, there was no Tractor Green!

Not tractor green? What a pity! Maybe sand/brown? No?
Then, what other if not grey/grey?
Regards
Massimo
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dragonlanceHR
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« Reply #8 on: June 01, 2011, 10:09:25 PM »

Long live the tractors!

Sometimes the subject of VVS colors research in English feels like one step forward, two steps back...
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KL
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« Reply #9 on: June 01, 2011, 11:44:57 PM »

Quote
looking at photos of Yaks, I am strongly suspecting that something should be rewritten.
.... a different scheme that we can describe as 'serpentine'

Massimo, the history has been rewritten - the scheme is already known as "raised ramp" & "loops"

This profile looks plausable:






This one is suspicious:






more food for thoughts:  Tiger stripes!  Yak-7-37 prototype



Cheers,
KL
« Last Edit: June 02, 2011, 04:41:39 AM by KL » Logged
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #10 on: June 01, 2011, 11:56:18 PM »

Hi Konstantin,
the grey-grey profile looks plausible to me, the comparison of the NII VVS museum planes show clearly that the Yak-9 isn't with the same colors than the MiG. Il-2 and Pe-2, that are known to be green (the MiG) or green/black (Il-2 and Pe-2).
If there is not any other explanation, I would say that grey/grey camo on Yaks and I-230 existed before the summer of 1943.
Regards
Massimo
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John Thompson
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« Reply #11 on: June 02, 2011, 12:37:23 AM »


Massimo, there was no Tractor Green!  


Nothing runs (and in this case, runs, and runs, and keeps on running) like a Deere!  Cheesy

(Explanation for non-North Americans: "Nothing runs like a Deere" is the popular advertising slogan for John Deere Tractors. Ironically, "John Deere Green", the colour in which these widely-used tractors are painted, is almost an exact match for the acid green colour used for AMT-4 in many well-known profiles... Wink )



Farmer John
« Last Edit: June 02, 2011, 12:48:14 AM by John Thompson » Logged
learstang
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« Reply #12 on: June 02, 2011, 01:11:45 AM »

No tractor green!?  But John, Konstantin, when am I ever going to be able to use my two tins of "WW2 Soviet VVS TRACTOR GREEN" (that's what it says helpfully on the tin) that I bought from WEM a few years ago?  On the subject of WEM "Soviet" paints, I finally found a use for their "AII Brown".  I used it to paint the parts for the oil system on my Hobby Boss IL-2.  According to references (including our very own Mr. Tessitori), the colour for the oil system was glossy brown.  I could have used my WEM "Tractor Green" for the coolant system, which one Russian author described as being a "poisonous green", but I don't think it was quite this poisonous-looking so I went with another glossy green.  Besides, I figure those WEM tins with their fictitious VVS colours may be collectors' items someday.  There's positive thinking for you!

Regards,

Jason
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KL
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« Reply #13 on: June 02, 2011, 01:46:35 AM »

I still can't figure out what are the correct colours of "Tractor Green" and "Factory Green"



can anybody help???
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learstang
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« Reply #14 on: June 02, 2011, 02:42:20 AM »

Konstantin, it's like science-fiction; since they never existed you can make them anything you want to!  Maybe we could have a contest to come up with our own variants of these well-known "VVS colours".  The problem is, if we did that, those colours would start showing up in profiles and kit and decal instructions ("tractor green as seen on the Sovietwarplanes site").  After all, someone had to be the first one to make up the brown/green camouflage scheme.

Regards,

Jason
« Last Edit: June 02, 2011, 02:44:06 AM by learstang » Logged

"I'll sleep when I'm dead."

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