early grey/grey serpentine camouflage on Yaks

[KL]

Yak-7 HSU Kleshchova:





Summer 1942 and standard green-black camouflage.

Cheers,
KL

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi Konstantin,
thank you for posting this research, I had researched something too and I think that, being dead in a crash, it's doubtful that his plane has survived.
However the marks of his  black-green Yak-7 have resemblance with those of this later one.

Maybe this was his last plane... but I see much less victory marks.
AR will be on holidays for a pair of weeks, I have to wait to ask further explanations.
Regards
Massimo

[KL]

Maybe this was his last plane... but I see much less victory marks.

Hi Massimo,

You are in Pilawskii?s territory!
Yak-7B from your photo is AII Green-Dark Green:




There are also different interpretations:



from:  http://www.airaces.narod.ru/all4/german.htm

similarly depicted is S. Mikoyan?s Yak-9:





Another S. Mikoyan?s Yak; "White 27" (12 GvIAP):





Cheers,
KL

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi Konstantin,
thank you for these images, those of Za borodo were new for me.
The photo of the line of Yaks behind the MiG-3 can give some indication: the MiG I-230 are thought to be grey-grey from other photos, they often are interpreted as green-light grey on old works.
But the most promising possibility is to find a better photo of the line of Yak-7 behind the n.27; they have to be green/black and would allow a comparison.
Regards
Massimo

[John Thompson]

But the most promising possibility is to find a better photo of the line of Yak-7 behind the n.27; they have to be green/black and would allow a comparison.
Regards
Massimo

That's easy - it's one of these:



...although there's no way of knowing if it might have been repainted or not; the image Konstantin posted doesn't have very good resolution (I think I've seen it published somewhere where it's a bit clearer) but the Komsomol inscription is still faintly visible. I know I've seen some discussion of this photo elsewhere; Scalemodels.ru, probably.

John

[KL]

thank you for these images, those of Za borodo were new for me.

Mikoyan's Yak-9 carried inscription "Za Volodyu" ("For Volodya").  It referred to his brother Vladimir Mikoyan who was killed in action in Sept 1942.









All photos were taken in March 1943 when Mikoyan was with 32th GvIAP.  The plane was most likely camouflaged in black-green scheme.

Cheers,
KL

[learstang]

Interesting pictures, Konstantin!  I notice that even though the photographs are from 1943, the Yak still has the prewar type red stars with the thin black outline.  Do you know how late these were used - did any aeroplanes use them until the end of the war (in other words is there any photographic evidence for this)?

Regards,

Jason

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi John,  Konstantin, Jason

That's easy - it's one of these:



...although there's no way of knowing if it might have been repainted or not; the image Konstantin posted doesn't have very good resolution (I think I've seen it published somewhere where it's a bit clearer) but the Komsomol inscription is still faintly visible. I know I've seen some discussion of this photo elsewhere; Scalemodels.ru, probably.

Good image John, althogh it doesn't allow a direct comparison with n.287; here the black is black, no doubt, but the green... again this high contrasting camouflage typical of so many Yaks...

Mikoyan's Yak-9 carried inscription "Za Volodyu" ("For Volodya").  It referred to his brother Vladimir Mikoyan who was killed in action in Sept 1942.

All photos were taken in March 1943 when Mikoyan was with 32th GvIAP.  The plane was most likely camouflaged in black-green scheme.

Thanks, really good images. Of course I have my doubts on black and green.

Interesting pictures, Konstantin!  I notice that even though the photographs are from 1943, the Yak still has the prewar type red stars with the thin black outline.  Do you know how late these were used - did any aeroplanes use them until the end of the war (in other words is there any photographic evidence for this)?

I would say, the summer of 1943. The change is more or less contemporary to the 1943 nkap scheme.

Regards
Massimo

[KL]

Do you know how late these were used - did any aeroplanes use them until the end of the war (in other words is there any photographic evidence for this)?

Jason,
Red stars with wider white and thin red outline were introduced on Sept 03, 1943 by directive called "About the improvment of the visibility of the VVS KA markings".

... but the green... again this high contrasting camouflage typical of so many Yaks...

Massimo,
you missed one of my previous posts:

Two reasons why green AMT-4 looks dark gray on some b/w photos and light gray on others:

1.   Photos were taken with different types of film (different spectral sensitivity) combined with different optical filters
2.   AMT-4 had some special spectral properties ? it was non-decodable (nedeshifruemya)

LaGGs camouflaged in black-green scheme also show wide range of grays for AMT-4 painted areas:
 




Two photos above were taken with different types of film - red star is dark on the upper photo and almost white on the lower photo.

[learstang]

Thank you for the information about the stars, Massimo and Konstantin!  So the "Victory" stars were officially introduced at about the same time as the three-colour scheme.

Regards,

Jason

[John Thompson]

Interesting pictures, Konstantin!  I notice that even though the photographs are from 1943, the Yak still has the prewar type red stars with the thin black outline.  Do you know how late these were used - did any aeroplanes use them until the end of the war (in other words is there any photographic evidence for this)?

Regards,

Jason

More on this topic:
http://s362974870.onlinehome.us/forums/air/index.php?showtopic=201636

John

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi Konstantin,
I read your post, but I continue to see that nearly all photos of Yaks shows high contrast, and photos of other planes not. I don't think that they use always the same film for yaks and few other planes only.
To find some new indication, we have to look for photos where Yaks and other types of planes are shown side by side.
Regards
Massimo

[KL]

I read your post, but I continue to see that nearly all photos of Yaks shows high contrast, and photos of other planes not.

You may say this way:  low contrast is visible on some Yaks and on many planes of other types.  I don't see anything strange there.

I think that's result of different film types, different lighting, etc...  
You are suspecting that Yaks were painted with some different type of green paint...  

Different approach....  

High contrast examples from your own research (supposedly found only on Yaks):











Cheers,
KL

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi Konstantin,
I know that high contrast appears also on photos of other types, but on Yaks it is so regular to cause the suspect that there has to be some non-casual reason.
Regards
Massimo

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi Konstantin,
here are two photos from the booklet of Orlov:


As you read in the text of the book, they always restored the pre-existing camouflages with AMT colors They have just repainted a plane. So, the darker color is fresh, can't be faded black. Is it fresh black, in your opinion? I would say not. And it appears exactly identical to that of the supposed prototype of grey-grey planes in 1943, and to that of Yak-7b in late 1942. None of the known photos shows the characteristic look of black-green planes, although having been shot with different films in different occasions. This is evidence for me.
To say nothing about the fact that painting the sides light blue and the part under the tail with a darker color makes sense only for a camouflage destined to mask the plane on the horizon, not certainly on the ground.
 
Regards
Massimo