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early grey/grey serpentine camouflage on Yaks
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Author Topic: early grey/grey serpentine camouflage on Yaks  (Read 39376 times)
Walker
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« Reply #45 on: June 16, 2011, 10:12:10 AM »

Hi all,
looking at photos of Yaks, I am strongly suspecting that something should be rewritten.
Probably the first application of AMT-11 and 12 on many Yakovlev planes, in 1943, was made according to a different scheme that we can describe as 'serpentine'.

Image from SAFFC by EP It has often interpreted as a tricky black-green or tractor green-dark green scheme, but the photo here allows the comparison with the colors of the MiG-3, Il-2 and Pe-2, and it's clear that it can't absolutely be the same. So, it's likely that this was a first application of AMT-11/12.
Note the high contour of the AMT-7 light blue demarcation line on the fuselage sides, that encourages the interpretation as a blue-gray plane, and the early style marks.
Note the wing of a La-5, believed to be white or light grey overall.

Massimo

I have a picture on the other side. Indeed color Yak-9 look like 11/12. But I think that this is non-standard experimental painting, which is just at that time was tested. Two-color on the Yak-9 and three-color on the Yak-1. As a result, two-color scheme was approved by the camouflage, but with modified forms of spots. La-5F really looks like a very light gray.
http://propjet.ucoz.ru/photo/1-0-4-3

Here is a picture of that Yak-9 during testing of the new scheme:
http://propjet.ucoz.ru/photo/1-0-5-3

As you can see it the same plane. A color scheme, the same two-color camouflage first experimental adopted later in modified forms spots.
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #46 on: June 16, 2011, 12:34:47 PM »

Hi Walker,
thank you for the links, but for some reason I can't see the photos. Has one to subscribe that forum?
This plane is really grey/grey, by sure. As you read, my idea is that colors were utilized even before because nearly all of the Yaks that resemble this plane as shape of camouflage resemble to it for colors too.
Besides, a wide light blue blotch on the fuselage sides in a position well visible from above, and a dark band passing under the tail where it is visible only from below, suggest an air-to-air masking.
I would like to know if there exist images of such planes strongly suggesting usual black/green colors on this shape of camo.
Maybe have you the possibilty to ask to Mr. Orlov to discuss this topic, please?
Regards
Massimo
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Walker
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« Reply #47 on: June 16, 2011, 05:13:26 PM »

As I wrote above, this picture of Yak-9 was held in the Institute of Air Force tests new camouflage scheme with the Yak-1. Yak-9 was painted in two colors top blue-gray AMT-11 and dark-gray AMT-12. Two Yaka were painted: the first in two standard colors: green and black. The second of three: green, black and light brown. According to the results of tests was selected two-tone camouflage scheme AMT-11/AMT-12 but with modified forms of spots. Accordingly, in a series of aircraft were painted in this scheme but also to other fields of camouflage. All other photos are listed in this thread with other aircraft is likely to relate to the aircraft passed the PARM s Field aviation maintenance workshops, where planes were painted in a completely non-standard camouflage with a completely non-traditional spots. As proof of this is the set of photos.

Unfortunately I can not attach a photo. On it the same Yak-9 during testing camouflage coloring.
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KL
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« Reply #48 on: June 16, 2011, 09:35:41 PM »

I have a picture on the other side. Indeed color Yak-9 look like 11/12. But I think that this is non-standard experimental painting, which is just at that time was tested. Two-color on the Yak-9 and three-color on the Yak-1. As a result, two-color scheme was approved by the camouflage, but with modified forms of spots. La-5F really looks like a very light gray.
http://propjet.ucoz.ru/photo/1-0-4-3

Hi Walker,  Smiley

thanks for the interesting photo!  I had to register to your page to view it.  Cheesy

Do you have any additional information about these photos, like the date when the photo was taken?
That must be He-100 in front of La-5?

Cheers,
KL
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #49 on: June 17, 2011, 09:18:07 AM »

Quote
All other photos are listed in this thread with other aircraft is likely to relate to the aircraft passed the PARM s Field aviation maintenance workshops, where planes were painted in a completely non-standard camouflage with a completely non-traditional spots. As proof of this is the set of photos.
Hi Walker,
I think that it's possible that some planes were repainted with grey over green black after summer 1943, but it's not likely for me, because the photos of planes dated to 1942 have the same look of those taken in 1943 and surely grey/grey. It is possible that one photo was of a repainted plane, another photo is tricky for exposure reasons etc, but here is a fairly good number of photos all pointing in the same direction.
I think that, if a plane is repainted after August 1943, PARM should follow the new scheme, not the old one. However, the interview  says that they usually simply restored previous painting.
Now there is another possibility: I'm sure that there are other photos of planes with this painting scheme, that was not rare and easily recognizable. We can collect all the existing ones to see if we find an adequate number, or any, strongly suggesting that a green/black variant of this painting did exist; there is not any difficulty to find many photo confirming green-black use for other patterns, why should be such difficulty for this one only?
Regards
Massimo
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Walker
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« Reply #50 on: June 17, 2011, 11:13:08 AM »

After the adoption of the scheme AMT-11/12, the camouflage was applied to the aircraft factories for new aircraft. In the "PARM" could also be repainted aircraft after repairs in these colors. What made it the most unusual and unconventional color.
In addition, some plant were painted its planes with deviations from the standard color scheme. For example plant number 21.
Order number 389S/0133 NCAP and VVS RKKA July 3, 1943, the beginning of the new aircraft painting aircraft factory, scheduled from July 15, 1943. Attack aircraft and bombers from August 1.
Before 15 July were ordered released on the new aircraft until the new paint, replaced by black to dark gray. A gray-blue color by mixing blue and AMT-7 black AMT-6 colors. Prepared by the time the aircraft in black-and-green color is not repainted. Instructed to send in the part of the same number of aircraft in both stains. Repaint fought at the time of the shelves, too, not repainted aircraft. Only those that were repaired in the "Parma".
The process of transition from black-green to gray-gray gradually, as the failure of the old aircraft and replaced with new in a new color.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2011, 11:17:12 AM by Walker » Logged
Walker
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« Reply #51 on: June 17, 2011, 11:15:26 AM »

Hi Walker,  Smiley

thanks for the interesting photo!  I had to register to your page to view it.  Cheesy

Do you have any additional information about these photos, like the date when the photo was taken?
That must be He-100 in front of La-5?

Cheers,
KL

Yes it is He-100 bought before the war, and passing the test in NII VVS.
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #52 on: June 17, 2011, 01:39:34 PM »

Hi Walker,
thank you, this is a translation from Orlov. This will be useful to many.
I exposed my idea after having read the automatic translation of the text.  Now, I am suspecting that there is something to add, and relative to the Yaks made in that factory only, not to planes in general.
Regards
Massimo
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KL
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« Reply #53 on: June 17, 2011, 07:24:06 PM »

looking at photos of Yaks, I am strongly suspecting that something should be rewritten.

Obviously you need a better translation of V&O texts - some answers on your questions are there.

But, why would anybody waste time and effort translating it if you believe that history based on documents can be rewritten because there is a "photographic evidence" that may, or may not, show something else? Huh

Regards,
KL
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learstang
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« Reply #54 on: June 17, 2011, 07:49:10 PM »

looking at photos of Yaks, I am strongly suspecting that something should be rewritten.

Obviously you need a better translation of V&O texts - some answers on your questions are there.

But, why would anybody waste time and effort translating it if you believe that history based on documents can be rewritten because there is a "photographic evidence" that may, or may not, show something else? Huh

Regards,
KL

Actually, Konstantin, I believe we were waiting on you to finish a translation of V&O's work.

Regards,

Jason
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #55 on: October 03, 2013, 07:10:04 PM »

Hi,
I've found some interesting images at
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZDMfJdkESI
at 4:13

The planes are clearly under the same light conditions, but the difference of shades between them is evident.
Some more images from the movie, cutting and enlarging the details of the planes without making any change to the shade:

The dark plane has clearly a black-gren camouflage, while the lighter one is clearly related to these ones:

that is known as a grey-grey plane of spring 1943 (the prototype of grey-grey planes, as widely thought till now)

a Yak-7 late type of late 1942
and other photos of similar planes built in z.115 in late 1942 and the first half of 1943.
Regards
Massimo
« Last Edit: October 03, 2013, 07:12:54 PM by Massimo Tessitori » Logged
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