Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /membri/massimotessitori/sovietwarplanes/board/Sources/Load.php(225) : runtime-created function on line 3
early grey/grey serpentine camouflage on Yaks
Sovietwarplanes
March 29, 2024, 11:38:44 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: This forum replaces the old sovietwarplanes.com whose domain has expired in January 2017. It has been updated with the posts of the year 2016.
The new location of the site 'Sovietwarplanes pages' is at http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register  
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4
  Print  
Author Topic: early grey/grey serpentine camouflage on Yaks  (Read 39377 times)
Massimo Tessitori
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 6528


« Reply #15 on: June 02, 2011, 06:39:18 AM »

Hi all,
no doubt, the reports on tractor green have to be somehow wrong: even if a factory finds only such acidic green to put on their planes, they would mix it with black and other colors before spraying, because, as it looks, none can see it as a camouflage color.
Neverthless, there is still something very unclear in VVS painting: why do the green appear so light in so many photos of Yaks, and not of Lavochkins and Mig and Pe-2s? Is it only a question of film sensibility? But why did they use different films for Yaks? So, if the tractor green explanation is wrong, there has to be another one.
Maybe they utilized thin layers of green, that let transpare the yellow background to give the idea of a lighter green? 
And so, can factory green be considered as a bad attempt to represent another shade as AII green used on wood (that was darker than the authors thought), 3B or other existing paints?

By the way, John, nice tractor indeed. But it still lacks of black bands. Cheesy
Regards
Massimo
Logged
learstang
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1863



« Reply #16 on: June 02, 2011, 07:27:53 AM »

Massimo, speaking of Lavochkin's, what about Galchenko's LaGG-3, with the three topsides colours, two of which appear to be two different greens?  Could this be a case of what you're talking about?  No doubt I think we have a pretty good idea of what paints were painted on the vast majority of 'planes for a given time period, but there are aircraft with schemes that don't fit into any neat NKAP scheme either in terms of their colours or their patterns.  I'm thinking of the single-seater IL-2 shot down in Finland (alongside a Shturmovik with the early overall green scheme), which appears on your page of 1941-1943 schemes (the same page with Galchenko's aeroplane).  It also appears to have three colours, with perhaps two green colours, and the pattern itself is extremely unusual.  There are still questions.  Although these aeroplanes were exceptions, it's this exceptional nature that makes them desirable from a modelling standpoint.  Who wants a veritable squadron of model Lavochkins or Shturmoviks, all painted in the same schemes?

Regards,

Jason
« Last Edit: June 02, 2011, 07:30:07 AM by learstang » Logged

"I'll sleep when I'm dead."

- Warren William Zevon
mholly
Full Member
***
Posts: 117


« Reply #17 on: June 02, 2011, 09:11:31 AM »

Massimo,
from 2nd Hornat's article
..."8. coloration must be executed only in the standard paints supplied to the aviation units of the following nomenclature: for the wooden and fabric airframe skins green paint AMT-4, light brown AMT-1, dark gray AMT-12, gray-blue AMT-11 and blue AMT-17"...
Why do we need to talk about "tractor green" again?
Even though paints for agricultural equipment were enamels for metals aviation enamels are different, specifically formulated for light alloys! Non-aviation paint just cannot be used on airplanes. If you're still in doubt as far as VVS is concerned there is an overwhelming proof for this in other airforces painting standards. For example Luftwaffe went through years-long process to develop such paints. Japan had to buy paint technology for light metals from Germany.
There is another point you seem to be missing-mentality in the Soviet society at that time. Initiative was not welcome, it was even dangerous. I just cannot imagine some workers mixing "tractor" paint with black to achieve desired shade. They would rather leave the aircraft in primer (silver many time as we all have seen) once prescribed aviation paints were in shortage (and again we know it did happen).
I hate saying it once again but judging from b&w pictures you're making misleading conclusions. And it cann't be otherwise unless you know exactly what type of film was used, what filter if any, exposure time, lighting condition, exact date, maybe some other data. You would have to have either original negative or 1st generation print as well. Only then your chances to determine some color information would be better. Orlov is very specific about this and so are other color researchers.
Cheers,
Mario
Logged
KL
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1678


« Reply #18 on: June 02, 2011, 06:19:47 PM »

Neverthless, there is still something very unclear in VVS painting: why do the green appear so light in so many photos of Yaks, and not of Lavochkins and Mig and Pe-2s? Is it only a question of film sensibility? But why did they use different films for Yaks? So, if the tractor green explanation is wrong, there has to be another one.


Two reasons why green AMT-4 looks dark gray on some b/w photos and light gray on others:

1.   Photos were taken with different types of film (different spectral sensitivity) and with different optical filters
2.   AMT-4 had some special spectral properties ? it was non-decodable (nedeshifruemya)


LaGGs camouflaged in black-green scheme also show wide range of grays for AMT-4 painted areas:
 




Two photos above were taken with different types of film - red star is dark on the upper photo and almost white on the lower photo.

Better forget tractors, Green-Dark Green scheme or South Front Scheme and stick to Vahlamov?s & Orlov?s works.  Photo analysis could be useful to find camouflage patterns, or personal markings; it definitely can?t be used to define colours.

Cheers,
KL

PS:  check some of my earliest posts for explanation what "nondecodable" means
Logged
Massimo Tessitori
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 6528


« Reply #19 on: June 02, 2011, 07:35:44 PM »

Hi all,
I've continued to examinate those photos, and I've discovered an interesting thing: the photo of the Yak-9 at NII VVS museum is exactly the one utilized for tests, so it's clearly grey and grey.
It appears identical in scheme and colors to Yak-7b built months before, to the Yak-7PD that is photographed aside I-230 with the same colors (always thought to be grey and grey, none draws it as green and black) and to the first prototype of Yak-1m (the second prototype, taken presumably with the same film, shows apparently the same colors but with the NKAP 1943 scheme). Same scheme, same apparent colors. That is enough for me.
Quote
There is another point you seem to be missing-mentality in the Soviet society at that time. Initiative was not welcome, it was even dangerous. I just cannot imagine some workers mixing "tractor" paint with black to achieve desired shade. They would rather leave the aircraft in primer (silver many time as we all have seen) once prescribed aviation paints were in shortage (and again we know it did happen).
The Yak fighter were often camouflaged with green and black since the mid of 1940, and the NKAP instructions of 1941 officialized for all builders what Yakovlev was already doing. It seems that it was the same thing in 1943  with the grey-grey scheme.
Besides, there were many compliants about the black-black scheme in 1942, and a general proposed its own one; if Russians were so terrorized to criticize painting schemes, they shouldn't have done this, but wait that the order started from Stalin himself to do anything.
By the way, have you some example of planes sent in combat left in primer?
Regards
Massimo
Logged
Apex1701
Full Member
***
Posts: 123



« Reply #20 on: June 02, 2011, 11:05:53 PM »

Hi guys,

this photo was shown by Vakhlamov and Orlov in one of their 1998-1999 articles.
My russian is poor and I can be wrong but I think they said it's a black and green camo.


Jean
Logged
mholly
Full Member
***
Posts: 117


« Reply #21 on: June 03, 2011, 03:54:31 AM »

Hi guys,

this photo was shown by Vakhlamov and Orlov in one of their 1998-1999 articles.
My russian is poor and I can be wrong but I think they said it's a black and green camo.


Jean
Caption says:
"Yak-1M (Yak-3 test example) manufactured by Moscow plant nr.115 painted in green-black camouflage being tested at NII VVS on February 15, 1943.
Compare this photograph with those taken in PARM nr.1087 where the airplanes were painted according to this scheme but already in 2 shades of gray."
Cheers,
Mario
Logged
Massimo Tessitori
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 6528


« Reply #22 on: June 03, 2011, 07:40:35 AM »

Hi Jean and Mario,
with all the respect for the authors, this is a case where a description of colors is given on the base of the visual impression of the photo. I respectfully disagree.  Note how high is the blue on the sides: for me, this is a scheme apt to distort the shape of the plane when in flight.
However, it's surprisingly interesting where it says that planes made in the same factory with the same scheme were already painted grey-grey in february 1943, months before of the release of the NKAP template.
Regards
Massimo
Logged
KL
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1678


« Reply #23 on: June 03, 2011, 08:09:58 AM »

However, it's surprisingly interesting where it says that planes made in the same factory with the same scheme were already painted grey-grey in february 1943, months before of the release of the NKAP template.

It says that Yaks overhauled by a maintance unit in summer 1945 had been painted in similar pattern but in two gray scheme.

HTH  Smiley
KL
« Last Edit: June 03, 2011, 08:12:21 AM by KL » Logged
Apex1701
Full Member
***
Posts: 123



« Reply #24 on: June 03, 2011, 12:20:50 PM »

It says that Yaks overhauled by a maintance unit in summer 1945 had been painted in similar pattern but in two gray scheme.

Summer 1945 ?
I am not good in russian but I am better with numbers and I can't see anything ressembling 1945 nor than лето ?
 Shocked

Could you explain. Thanks.

Jean
Logged
KL
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1678


« Reply #25 on: June 03, 2011, 06:18:30 PM »

Summer 1945 ?
I am not good in russian but I am better with numbers and I can't see anything ressembling 1945 nor than лето ?
 Shocked
Could you explain. Thanks.

"Compare this photograph with those taken in PARM nr.1087 where the airplanes were painted according to this scheme but already in 2 shades of gray."  (Thanks Mario!)

sentence above reffers to photos taken in summer 1945.  Check the last photo on Pg 39 for "лето 1945":







Cheers,
KL
« Last Edit: June 04, 2011, 08:18:16 AM by KL » Logged
Massimo Tessitori
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 6528


« Reply #26 on: June 04, 2011, 07:18:10 AM »

Hi all,

Hi all,

This is the only early Yak-9 preserved in Yakovlev collection, and has a grey-grey camouflage similar to the known serpentine. It's believed to have been the plane of I.I.Kleshchev of 434 IAP (thanks to Aleksandr Ruckovski).

Yes, I know, the plane could have been repainted, but take in account that who repainted it saw the original colors. Besides, for what I know, the exhibits of the Yakovlev collection are all painted in credible way.

About the planes in PARM: unfortunately the scans are not visible. By the way, which is the number of M-Hobby where they appear?
The fact that the planes are in PARM and in 1945 doesn't mean that they were all repainted with new colors on an old scheme with old colors. If they want to repaint a new plane to fit a new standard, it's likely that they follow the lines of the 1943 template.  I haven't seen cases of planes that are suspected to have been repainted grey/grey on the old lines of the 1941 template.

At present time, I would say that all evidences are that the serpentine planes were grey. There is only a pair of photos of Yak-9 0104 that looks very dark on 'yakovlev piston-engined fighters', pag.63, but the AMT-7 appears dark too, and the stars appear very light, so I would say that it's a problem of filter on the objective or of a particular film.
Other grey-looking photos are taken in many different occasions, both in factory and operative, so they can't be suspected to have all been altered with the same photographic filter or unusual film.

Regards
Massimo
Logged
KL
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1678


« Reply #27 on: June 04, 2011, 07:53:30 AM »

Yes, I know, the plane could have been repainted, but take in account that who repainted it saw the original colors. Besides, for what I know, the exhibits of the Yakovlev collection are all painted in credible way.

Hi Massimo,
Thanks for the nice photo.  It's nice but almost useless for this case.  All planes preserved in Soviet museums were repainted.  Authenthicity of colours wasn't important for restorers.

Speaking of OKB Yakovlev's museum, it doesn't exist any more!  Yak-9 from your photo was fortunately saved by Zadorozhni Museum and it's displayed there now.  We can see how much they cared for old planes from "HSU Yeryomin's Yak-3 case" -  this Yak-3 was the most valuable exhibit in the collection and it was sold to Americans in early 1990es.

Of course, Yak-9 from your picture was repainted yet again while in the new museum:







Are those authentic colours?Huh?
« Last Edit: June 04, 2011, 08:21:56 AM by KL » Logged
Massimo Tessitori
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 6528


« Reply #28 on: June 04, 2011, 12:47:07 PM »

Hi Konstantin,
green over grey? What a shame!
It could be useful to find the earlier known photo of this plane to see if it looks changed respect to the image of the dismanted plane. Who has any information on that Kleshchev?
Regards
Massimo
Logged
KL
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1678


« Reply #29 on: June 04, 2011, 05:39:39 PM »

Who has any information on that Kleshchev?

HSU Ivan Ivanovich Kleshchov (Клещёв).  Acoording to M. Bikov 16 confirmed individual victories and 15 group victories.  Killed in landing accident on 31 December 1942.

http://allaces.ru/p/people.php?id=13284
http://www.allaces.ru/p/peoplecls.php?id=13284





http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9A%D0%BB%D0%B5%D1%89%D1%91%D0%B2,_%D0%98%D0%B2%D0%B0%D0%BD_%D0%98%D0%B2%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B8%D1%87



Also at: http://airaces.narod.ru/all/kleshev1.htm





Last photo was taken in old OKB Yakovlev Museum

Logged
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.11 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!