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Author Topic: I-15 bis of the 70 IAP Kalkhin gol war, may of 1939  (Read 45218 times)
xan
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« Reply #15 on: September 28, 2011, 10:33:13 PM »

It looks like Xan updated the lower picture - it does look like it might have a bit of a yellowish cast to it (I don't think it did before).  Are seeing this in person, Xan?

I did updated...
hard to take a good picture especialy by night...
I will try another one:



FS-15630 is provided by Pilawskii and, by definition, can not be right!

quite a dangerous sentence Konstantin  Wink

anyway I found this reference on Hornat's "colors of the falcons" P.55.
those are not Hornat's colours value?

in this pics, the B metal piece appears clearly in grey AE-9, near the red star.
The bombs racking (A) doesn't seem to be AE-9 ...

Massimo, this pic come from your web site, do you know where is this pic taken ?

Xan

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KL
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« Reply #16 on: September 28, 2011, 11:40:24 PM »



Xan, it's still yellow  Shocked.  Could be the flash?  Huh

Following are SB bomber fragments, all painted in light gray AE-9











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xan
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« Reply #17 on: September 29, 2011, 08:46:47 AM »

Thank you konstantin for those pics It clearly understand my error.
I will correct it.
so , about the colours references in "colors of the falcons" P.55:
the AE-9 FS reference is wrong; is it an Hornat work or a later adition ?
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #18 on: September 29, 2011, 02:07:17 PM »

Hi,
from photos, all the pieces known look more bluish than the fs given by Hornat and Pilawskii. The color visible on the inside of the I-153 of Bourget looks more yellowish. Probably the paint ages differently if exposed to sunlight or not.
However, the bluish version looks more credible for me too.
Regards
Massimo
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xan
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« Reply #19 on: September 29, 2011, 04:13:13 PM »

The color visible on the inside of the I-153 of Bourget looks more yellowish. Probably the paint ages differently if exposed to sunlight or not.

Hi Masimo,
neoking told me i wasn't sure at all the intrior paint in the cockpit was the real one...

however does someone know if the table of FS in the book p.55 was elaboreted by Hornat, or if it's pilawskii work added (in witch case it wouldn't be serious work at all by the editor)

reading again the MP neoking send me, he is mch more clear:

Je ne saurais pas dire exactement quelle couleur est peinte dans le cockpit. Il semble que la structure ait ?t? compl?tement repeinte, car certaines zones non repeintes montrent un gris clair voir legerement bleut? sur certaines pi?ces. Mais je suis a peu pr?s sur que la couleur verd?tre que tu vois sur les photos n'est pas d'origine.

wich means: Icouldn't tell you the exact colour of the cockpit, it seems that structure has been totaly painted again. Some part are grey, or a little bit bluish in some part. I am quite sure that the grey green colour have been painted later

Xan
« Last Edit: September 29, 2011, 04:31:40 PM by xan » Logged

KL
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« Reply #20 on: September 29, 2011, 06:51:38 PM »

however does someone know if the table of FS in the book p.55 was elaboreted by Hornat, or if it's pilawskii work added (in witch case it wouldn't be serious work at all by the editor)

Yes, it is Pilawskii's work!
In his 2003 book (known as SAFFC), on page 17, in "A Treatise on VVS Colour System", Pilavskii gives following equivalents for what he calls "AEh-9 Lacquer":

FS Colour Range:  FS(2)5630
Pantone equivalent:  Pantone Cool Grey 1
Methuen Colour Book:  17B1
Munsell Colour Match:  2.25G/9.13/0.95

There is no doubt what were the sources used in 2005 "Colors of the Falcons" - both M-Hobby texts and Pilawskii's SAFFC!!! Migliardi explained this to Massimo.  FS25630 as an equivalent for AE-9 was published only in SAFFC.  Considering large number of fictional and misidentified colours in this book, I would not take this as a reliable information.  Lips Sealed

Happy modelling,  Smiley
KL  
« Last Edit: September 29, 2011, 07:11:28 PM by KL » Logged
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #21 on: September 29, 2011, 07:52:04 PM »

Hi,
it would be good to see some fs equivalent from those wrecks. One can guess from the photos, but it's a risk.
Regards
Massimo
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KL
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« Reply #22 on: September 29, 2011, 08:01:28 PM »

from photos, all the pieces known look more bluish than the fs given by Hornat and Pilawskii. The color visible on the inside of the I-153 of Bourget looks more yellowish. Probably the paint ages differently if exposed to sunlight or not.

Massimo,  Smiley
From 1936 to 1940 only one gray paint was used on series SB bombers:  AE-9.  Consiquently, there is no way to misidentify paint on all those SB wrecks, they were all painted in AE-9.

Between 1939 and 1945 several gray paints were used as interior colour:  A-14, A-14f, AE-9, maybe old greenish gray used on TB-3 bombers.  Consiquently, there is a lot of room to misidentify colours, especially on museum exhibits.

Regarding your "paint aging" comment:  Fragments I posted yesterday are from 7 different wrecks!!!  They were found in different climate zones: from sub-arctic taiga to warm Spain.  Some were dug-out from dirt, some were preserved in museums, some were exposed to the elements for decades.  After more than half a century of "aging" they all look the same!!!.
IMHO, those  "new" and  very different "old" colours are fiction, another Pilawskii's influence.  How can he (or anybody else) know nowdays how those colours looked when new 60-70 years ago?Huh?

Paints did degrade and change, that was a concern for their users, but did they drastically change colour??? I don't think so.  For modelling purposes (in 1:72 scale) that change is quite irrelevant.  leave to modellers (and their artistic license) to weather/wear/age their models.
If I were you, I would remove from your colour tables all those chips showing new and old colours.  Those are your guesses only.

Cheers,
KL
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #23 on: September 29, 2011, 11:31:26 PM »

Hi Konstantin,
this abundance of wrecks is encouraging, but they should be photographed aside a page of chips, maybe FS, to be identified with precision from photos. It shouldn't be impossible to find someone that has the possibility to do so. Maybe one could make a catalogue as a present fo Montoya or other owners... unfortunately, here FS catalogues are rare.
Regards
Massimo
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xan
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« Reply #24 on: September 30, 2011, 12:13:49 PM »

Hello boys!
I did the wing top's metal piece as it appears in the plan:



I was quite happy with my work when I saw this pic's in the massimo's web site.



the metal piece is not at the same place, so my plan is wrong; here's where the metal piecehad to be:



what a shame  Sad Sad

Xan



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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #25 on: September 30, 2011, 01:16:42 PM »

Hi Xan,
maybe they weren't all identical. I would look in photos, maybe there is still something to clarify.
Regards
Massimo
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marluc
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« Reply #26 on: September 30, 2011, 02:37:26 PM »

Xan,you?ve done a good detailing work with the metal piece,leave it as it is,you run the risk of ruining the wing undersurface.Greetings.

Martin
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KL
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« Reply #27 on: September 30, 2011, 06:12:42 PM »

the metal piece is not at the same place, so my plan is wrong; here's where the metal piecehad to be:



Maslov is a reliable source, I would not change the location of the plate.  Just trim 1mm towards the wing tip.

Few pics that may help with "the plates":


I-153 with "night landing torches" in place...





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xan
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« Reply #28 on: October 02, 2011, 09:22:01 AM »

Thanks a lot Konstantin for all those pics!

another thing: does someone know in which colors were the soviet bombs painted ?
4BO, AII green ?

Xan
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KL
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« Reply #29 on: October 02, 2011, 07:00:24 PM »

another thing: does someone know in which colors were the soviet bombs painted ?
4BO, AII green ?

None of those two  Cheesy:
-  4BO was a "basic" Army camouflage colour, bombs were not camouflaged
-  AII green was a nitrocellulose lacquer for fabric

Answer on your question at:
http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic_t_10144_start_0.html
http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic_t_9828.html

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