Sovietwarplanes
October 18, 2019, 03:50:23 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: This forum replaces the old sovietwarplanes.com whose domain has expired in January 2017. It has been updated with the posts of the year 2016.
The new location of the site 'Sovietwarplanes pages' is at http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register  
Pages: 1 [2]
  Print  
Author Topic: Discussion on rules and photos  (Read 9998 times)
Massimo Tessitori
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 5788


« Reply #15 on: June 16, 2011, 08:13:06 AM »

Hi Konstantin,
I think to be skeptical.

Here is the UTI-26 of mid 1940

here is the I-28 of late 1940. All Yakovlev's planes.
Now, we know that the black-green became a standard for all planes in June 1941. Is there any official known document that authorized Yakovlev to make his planes painted in such way?
By the way, Yakovlev has another important role, besides to that of plane designer, isn't it? Wasn't he the deputy minister of the NKAP or something similar, am I wrong? So, he made his planes painted as he preferred, and later imposed his own standards to all the other producers.
I think that ignoring a mess of photos that can be explained only in this way, sustaining maybe that the planes of these photos have to be painted in solid green because the rule says so, would be denial of evidence.
The same could be a prejudicial opposition to the grey-grey explanation of those photos, unless there is some other argument in favour of a different theory. At least a pair of photos where the same planes have the typical look of black-green planes, for example.
Regards
Massimo Smiley
« Last Edit: June 16, 2011, 09:10:14 AM by Massimo Tessitori » Logged
KL
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1678


« Reply #16 on: June 16, 2011, 09:09:04 AM »

I think to be skeptical.

Here is the UTI-26 of mid 1940

here is the I-28 of late 1940. All Yakovlev's planes.

Massimo,
check my March 07 and 08 posts at  http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=957.0

didn't I post the same photos 3 months ago?
Why are  those planes so special now? Orlov has already explained their role, we discussed them at this forum and you included them in your 1941 black-green camouflage page.

Just to refresh your memory:
A handfull of prototypes designed by Yakovlev OKB between summer 1940 and summer 1941 were painted in black-green camouflage scheme.  Thosands of series planes (including Yak-1s) made during the same period were painted according to May 1940 directive in solid green.

What is the analogy with those 1942 serpentine gray-gray Yaks?

Cheers,
KL

« Last Edit: June 16, 2011, 09:10:40 AM by KL » Logged
Massimo Tessitori
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 5788


« Reply #17 on: June 16, 2011, 09:40:35 AM »

Hi Konstantin,
Quote
didn't I post the same photos 3 months ago?
Why are  those planes so special now? Orlov has already explained their role, we discussed them at this forum and you included them in your 1941 black-green camouflage page.

Just to refresh your memory:
A handfull of prototypes designed by Yakovlev OKB between summer 1940 and summer 1941 were painted in black-green camouflage scheme.  Thosands of series planes (including Yak-1s) made during the same period were painted according to May 1940 directive in solid green.

What is the analogy with those 1942 serpentine gray-gray Yaks?

It is noticeable that, instead of painting prototypes red or silver, they camouflaged them in the same way that became standard eight months later.

I know that there are some rare photos of production Yak-1 with uniform green, but giving their poor number, it's still to demonstrate that all of them were delivered so. Part of them could have been delivered already camouflaged. But this could be an object of a separate topic.

What is clear is that Yakovlev had his own ideas on camouflage and the power to impose them.
Besides, the lack of lead and chromium oxide for AMT-4 green dates back since 1942, and it's likely that the deputy minister of the aeronautical production was very aware of this and started to study how to spare it much before imposing his way to all the factories.

Regards
Massimo Smiley
Logged
borisZG
Newbie
*
Posts: 3


« Reply #18 on: June 16, 2011, 02:21:59 PM »

Here's my two bobs, or cents, or whatever ..... (forgive my English, as I am not a native speaker)

Quote
A handfull of prototypes designed by Yakovlev OKB between summer 1940 and summer 1941 were painted in black-green camouflage scheme.

AFAIK, there were NO black-green prototypes BEFORE June 1941. (... UTI-26 in the photo was finished in June 1941)

Quote
I know that there are some rare photos of production Yak-1 with uniform green, but giving their poor number, it's still to demonstrate that all of them were delivered so. Part of them could have been delivered already camouflaged. But this could be an object of a separate topic.

What is clear is that Yakovlev had his own ideas on camouflage and the power to impose them.

Pre-June '41 I-26 were finished in solid green uppersurface scheme - please have a look at Stepanec's book on Yak-1

Neither Yakovlev nor anyone else would dare (or care, for that matter) to play with camouflage. Do not forget that the black-green camo is a direct result of the Winter War experience + camo scheme testing

Nor could anyone invent grey-grey scheme just like that, and start using it. As I already stated in a previous post, in was a sure path to repercussions. Even in Western countries, do you think UK MAP would accept, say, Spitfire fighters with a totally new and irregular camouflage ? In military, there is always bureaucracy present to a degree... Such experiments were possible only in the field and under very special circumstances (like 1941). Thus, btw, the 1942 grey-grey scheme is, I'm afraid, no more than a mere wish

Seems to me that there is lately a tendency to consider ideas or guesses as hard facts.
PLEASE, do not walk in Pilawski's shoes !
Logged
Massimo Tessitori
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 5788


« Reply #19 on: June 16, 2011, 03:54:51 PM »

Hi Boris,
for what I see on Yakovlev piston-engined fighters of Gordon and Khazanov, the I-26-1 in the photo was flown in July 1941, and the photograph is taken during manufacturer's flight tests. On 30 August an incident occurred during taxiing due to defective landing gear, and the work continued on I-26-2. Orlov too states that the photo is of 1940. I think that you should prove your affirmation that it's of 1941, if it is possible.
Quote
Neither Yakovlev nor anyone else would dare (or care, for that matter) to play with camouflage. Do not forget that the black-green camo is a direct result of the Winter War experience + camo scheme testing
For what I've read on Orlov, the experiments on camouflages of 1940 were about polichromatic schemes. Despite their success, black-green camo was hurrily chosen in 3 days because Stalin imposed a brief time for the decision, and was influenced by the availability of black paint instead of many shades not yet in mass production.
Quote
Nor could anyone invent grey-grey scheme just like that, and start using it. As I already stated in a previous post, in was a sure path to repercussions. Even in Western countries, do you think UK MAP would accept, say, Spitfire fighters with a totally new and irregular camouflage ? In military, there is always bureaucracy present to a degree... Such experiments were possible only in the field and under very special circumstances (like 1941). Thus, btw, the 1942 grey-grey scheme is, I'm afraid, no more than a mere wish

I don't think so. The lack of components for green was a fact, and experiments of new camos on planes made in factory (LaGG-3 and Pe-2s) in 1942 are citated by Orlov. I think that the arguments based on a good number of photos have to be taken in serious consideration, and not ignored as fantasies.
Regards
Massimo
Logged
KL
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1678


« Reply #20 on: June 16, 2011, 06:45:09 PM »

Massimo,  Smiley
Could you please change tread title into something more meaningful. Few suggestions: 

?   Photographic evidence vs. official documents
?   Limits of photographic evidence
?   Documents are irrelevant, photos are the only truth
?   Corrections of Vahlamov & Orlov?s research based on photographic evidence
?   How to use EP?s methods to prove that V&O were wrong


Thanks in advance,
KL  Cool 
Logged
Massimo Tessitori
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 5788


« Reply #21 on: June 17, 2011, 04:06:53 PM »

Hi Konstantin,
or maybe: comparing all available sources  with common sense?
Regards
Massimo Smiley
Logged
KL
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1678


« Reply #22 on: June 17, 2011, 06:10:25 PM »

Hi Konstantin,
or maybe: comparing all available sources  with common sense?
Regards
Massimo Smiley

Better:  Use common sense with available sources!!!

Pilawskii's SAFFC is technically a source - a source of some valid information and tons of misinformation.  B/W photos are a source, but not reliable, especially if you are looking for colours.
So, use common sense with those sources.

Honestly, the title should be changed because the subject is important...

Cheers,
KL  Cheesy
Logged
Pages: 1 [2]
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.11 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!