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Pe-2s and other types of 1945 with wide light painting
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Author Topic: Pe-2s and other types of 1945 with wide light painting  (Read 4626 times)
Massimo Tessitori
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« on: June 24, 2011, 10:44:52 PM »

Hi all,
when comparing photos of Pe-2s and other types with the templates of 1943 and 1945, I have seen a strange and frequent enough thing: the presence of wide areas painted with a light color.







Please compare with standard templates:




Massimo

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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2011, 11:01:43 PM »

This look is fairly common for Pe-2s, Tu-2s (Remember Moskva that looks to have all the wings and mid fuselage painted so?) and occasionally other types as Il-2 and Il-4.
Now, what color is it? Light brown and blue-grey are the first candidates. The color looks somewhat darker than the light blue of undersurfaces, but the contrast with other camo colors is even greater than usual for these colors.
Second, is it a PARM repainting, as I suppose, or some planes came out of factory already painted so?
Third, why to do so?

 My attempt of explanation is that, when the instructions to paint planes grey-grey reached PARMs and units, they didn't repainted the whole planes, but tried to add blue-grey over existing camouflages. This would match with the nearly total absence of planes painted according to the templates of 1945.
I'm not sure of this explanation, because it looks that the first planes with strangely wide light areas appeared already in the end of 1944, maybe after the approval in October but before the publication in the following January.
Besides I woud expect that both AMt-11 and even more A-33m  were somewhat darker, when new. The light look could be explained with a mix of A-28m with black according to the recipe included in the 1943 instructions.


Any suggestions?
Regards
Massimo
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JP
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« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2011, 09:44:00 AM »

Fading paint differences due to the covers applied over the cockpit area and engines?  The same thing can be seen on early A6M Zeke fighters where it appeared there were two colors, where it was actually sun fading in the areas where the canopy cover did not ... cover.  Your last image appears to show an aircraft with these covers applied.
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2011, 02:53:57 PM »

Hi John,
I don't think that this is the good solution. Such fading in few months, perhaps one year... it would be too surprising.
In the forth photo, the noses of the light planes look to reflect the sun as those of dark planes.
Now I'll add some photos:


The fuselage has normal camo, but the light color on the wing is abnormally extended.



Note that in many of these planes the rudders appear dark. Could this have to do with the fact that they were fabric-covered?
Regards
Massimo
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2011, 09:12:34 PM »

From an automatic translation of Orlov:
Quote
on bomber Pe-2 old camouflage rather simply turned into a new way of painting green fields with gray-blue paint, and light brown - dark gray (except for the paint on the left side of the tail). For the Yak-6 the conversion was carried out similarly, except for one light-brown patch on the left board in the bow of the fuselage.
At the end of convergence, and new camouflage is no other aircraft resembled earlier. For the Po-2 and UT-2, the border between the dark gray and gray-blue colours formed straight angled lines that, although simplified drawing of camouflage, it was effective only at large distances of observation, when the angles smoothed drawing. However, in a period of late like on a ruler, a West European landscape camouflage may have been acquitted.
For the 1944 Scheme, it was less used in practice: they were printed and distributed to the performers, and the war in Europe came to an end, but in peacetime the need for camouflage was no longer acute, and the production of aircraft began to fall. Nevertheless in 1945 on these schemes were painted on transport planes She-2 released by plant number 47.

According to this text, in 1945 Pe-2 saw their camo transformed with overpainting of blue-grey over light brown, and dark grey over green (and of course the already existing dark grey bands). This could be a trace, but photos seem to show that the light parts were widened. So the light color, if it's really blue-grey, should have covered all light brown parts, and eventually a large amount of green and sometimez of dark grey, often saving the rudders and elevators that were fabric- covered (but why didn't they save the ailerons too, then?).
Again, A-33m oil blue-grey should be darker than AMT-11, so I would expect a darker look. Maybe it was replaced by a mix of light blue and black that appeared lighter?
And it seems that some of these photos were of late 1944, when the directive was already approved but not divulgated.
At present time, however, this looks the most reasonable explanation for many of these photos.
Any ideas?

Massimo
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2011, 10:32:25 AM »

Hi,
from the latest interview published:
Quote
? How your airplanes were painted?
White at winter, but it was not paint, it was something that could be easily washed away by water. At summer ? green with yellowish spots. Mostly, one color green.
At the last month of war some planes came from the factories with green-green camouflage.
- Were there Pe-2s painted gray?
There were gray planes, just one color gray. But mostly we had green ones. Some dark green, some ? light green. Very few planes had a camouflage.
? How effective was camouflage in the air?
Hard to say how effective it was? I didn?t think about it at the time? Sometimes, especially at foggy or cloudy weather we noticed that on final approach airplane would ?melt? in the underlying terrain, but it was not a matter of camouflage. Single color plane was identical in this. At an altitude concealing paint did not work at all ? planes were still visible.
? Were there paintings or insignias on the planes?
Yes. At the fuselages of Major Klochkos planes there was an insignia: ?Leningrad?. On the left side there was a picture of ?Brass horseman?, on the right ? ?Lenin on the armored car?. It was painted this way because planes for this squadron were paid for by laborers of Leningrad. They came to our regiment and overpainted 9 planes that were ferried to the airbase by this time.
? Were there fast recognition elements on your planes?
Each squadron had special spinner color. At 1st ? red, we in 2nd had light blue, 3rd ? yellow.
? What about airplane bort number?
All white on the rudders. There were no rules of numbering planes.
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2011, 10:34:49 AM »

The memories are somewhat difficult to insert in other knowledges and beliefs, but the notes on overall grey planes could be connected to the Pe-2 photographed above.
Regards
Massimo
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