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Author Topic: Pe-2 with polichromatic camo in July 1941  (Read 25900 times)
Massimo Tessitori
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« on: July 13, 2011, 10:26:15 PM »

Hi,
now I'm working hard on twins and, thanks to the help of AR, I've collected many photos of Peshkas with a very interesting camo, probably belonging all to the same unit, and made some color sketches.

http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/pe2/pe2-earlycamo24/pe2-earlycamo24.htm

Any suggestions?

Regards
Massimo
« Last Edit: February 20, 2017, 10:51:08 AM by Massimo Tessitori » Logged
learstang
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« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2011, 01:05:23 AM »

No suggestions, but interesting work, Massimo!  I'd never seen Peshkas painted in that kind of camouflage before.  It would look good on a Shturmovik, if only I could find some photographs.

Regards,

Jason
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KL
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« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2011, 01:18:51 AM »

Interesting, almost looks like winter camouflage;   Roll Eyes I guess July 1941 is confirmed.

Those planes are factory painted in solid green A-19f and light blue A-18f undersides.  Obviously, June camouflage order did reach this unit and black camouflage was applied together with stars on tailplates.  The rest is a mystery!!!  Huh
Have you considered A-18f light blue for the lightest colour?  Why gray AE-9?  On SB bombers AE-9 disappeared in summer 1940...  IMHO this is a field applied black-green scheme further modified with light blue on upper surfaces (isn't that exotic!)
I would not even mention AII nitro paints - those were used for fabric only.

Cheers,
KL
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2011, 07:35:15 AM »

Hi Jason and Konstantin,
Quote
I guess July 1941 is confirmed
yes, absolutely, 21.7.41 is written behind one of the photos.

Quote
Have you considered A-18f light blue for the lightest colour?  Why gray AE-9?  On SB bombers AE-9 disappeared in summer 1940...  IMHO this is a field applied black-green scheme further modified with light blue on upper surfaces (isn't that exotic!)
No, if you see a flying plane from above, light grey can mask it against underlying clouds; light blue would immediately reveal it. Besides it's even more visible than light grey on the grassy ground. Eventually one could imagine some other colors as cream and tobacco brown, but I preferred to choose easily available colors.
The camo is applied accurately, most of the outlines are preserved between various planes, but colors are exchanged. Perhaps they even used wide masks of paper, or at least a drawn template.
Quote
I'd never seen Peshkas painted in that kind of camouflage before.  It would look good on a Shturmovik, if only I could find some photographs.
Nothing similar till now, sorry, if you don't consider the plane restored in Praha museum.

Regards
Massimo
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KL
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« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2011, 08:24:48 PM »

Massimo,
Same Pe-2 "White 24" camouflage has already been ?researched? by E. Pilawskii at  http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/Research/Petlyakov/Pe-2/Camouflage/Manchuria/index.php





Pilawskii also thinks that light areas on Pe-2 were light gray AE-9.   He explains this as Manchurian Influence!  As most of his research this is only a wild guess and most likely a total miss.

This Pe-2 doesn?t have anything in common with 1939 I-153.  I-153 was factory painted in accordance with 1937 rules and Pe-2 in accordance with May 1940 rules.

?   overall gray I-153 was overpainted with green fields
?   green top on Pe-2 was supposedly overpainted with gray fields

The result may look similar on b/w photos, but you should realize that painters did two opposite things ? in first case they applied green and in the second they covered green!  There was no Manchurian influence and it has to be something else.  Instead of guessing what is that something else, apply what you know for sure:

Those planes are factory painted in solid green A-19f and light blue A-18f undersides.  Obviously, June camouflage order did reach this unit and black camouflage was applied together with stars on tailplates.

Then, test different options for the lightest colour: light blue A-18f, light gray AE-9, (bright) olive green 4BO, maybe tan brown AMT-1 or its Army eqivalents.

BTW, blue on your profiles is way too dark for A-18f.  It looks like AMT-7 which appeared later.



Cheers,
KL
« Last Edit: July 14, 2011, 08:45:08 PM by KL » Logged
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2011, 07:12:32 AM »

Hi Konstantin,
thank you for your comments.
I was aware that EP has already done a page on this, I made my one after having asked to AR and having received from him an unexpected lot of images.
I agree that all considerations on a Manchurian influence are scarcely relevant. Besides, I don't agree with him about the number of colors: I see at least four on uppersurfaces.
After having started with a cream color, I preferred light grey for the already explained reasons, and prefer not to produce drawings with alternative explanations. Of course it's clear that one is free to give a different interpretation of bw photos. One could base on experimental camos of 1940 that were all made with ground colors, but I think that they shouldn't have been available in the units; besides, the photos show clearly that all that light color don't fit with a grassy ground, even if it was some beige or light green. Light blue, if seen from above, would have been a suicide.
Besides I'm reasonably sure that all the other colors were painted over green in the same time: they have the same contours, but are exchanged. This would be very unlikely if one paints black first, then add other colors.
I'll check for the light blue, however it's much lighter than the AMT-7 that I have already produced in chips and other works.
Regards
Massimo
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KL
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« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2011, 07:04:34 PM »

Hi Massimo,  Smiley

Consider following:
?   Light gray AE-9 had some bluish tinge.  The tinge was more or less visible depending on lighting.
?   A-18f was the lightest of the three blue colours used in 1941.  Much lighter then AMT-7 and lighter then AII Light Blue.  Maslov somewhere quotes original document which describes A-18f as ?blue like clouds?. In reality A-18f was light blue-gray.

In short, AE-9 and A-18f were tonally very close and on b/w photos they would look identical.

Then consider this:
June camouflage order was very specific about gray planes!  Gray upper surfaces had to be repainted in green-black scheme.  Applying gray over green-black scheme would be an action against the order. On the other hand, order didn?t say anything about light blue-gray on top surfaces? Wink


The question is why they needed this light colour on top of black-green.  Maybe you are right ? those could be high altitude planes which flew above the clouds. In that case light gray-blue or light blue-gray wouldn?t make any difference.

Personally, I like to keep things simple and logical.  Two green colours don?t make sense to me.  We have already been there: dark green-green scheme didn?t exist and those planes previously interpreted as dark green-green were actually green-black.  Same here, what you see as darker green is most likely black.

Cheers,
KL
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #7 on: July 15, 2011, 09:40:04 PM »

Hi Konstantin,
Quote
Personally, I like to keep things simple and logical.  Two green colours don?t make sense to me.  We have already been there: dark green-green scheme didn?t exist and those planes previously interpreted as dark green-green were actually green-black.  Same here, what you see as darker green is most likely black.
Examining all the photos, I am convinced that there are at least four colors on the uppersurfaces. I've choosen dark green because it's the more traditional choice and because a 3B dark green existed , but it could be any other dark color, including red brown or dark grey.
Regards
Massimo
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KL
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« Reply #8 on: July 15, 2011, 10:02:32 PM »

Examining all the photos, I am convinced that there are at least four colors on the uppersurfaces.

IMHO, only two on this one and they should be black and green.  True, nose could be different???. 



what is your interpretation in this case?

Regards,
KL
« Last Edit: July 15, 2011, 10:53:51 PM by KL » Logged
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2011, 07:13:32 AM »

Hi Konstantin,
on this case I think to see, from nose to tail:
green-black-grey-black-grey-green-grey.
Regards
Massimo
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KL
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« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2011, 07:27:32 AM »

As seen on e-bay:






Cheers,
KL
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2011, 09:44:49 AM »

Thank you Konstantin,
good images, perhaps I'll understand better how the leftwingroot is painted. It was missing on other photos.
Regards
Massimo
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Troy Smith
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« Reply #12 on: July 16, 2011, 08:17:03 PM »

 I am just making an observation.

These Pe-2s have similar tonal contrasts and patterns to the experimental 1940 schemes, given that The I-16 is on a cloudy day, the Pe-2 in direct light.     

here http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=668.0





It is fascinating that several photos of different planes exist, but all are wrecks in German hands, from the summer, judging by the bright light and vegetation.  Is there any more information on the photos sources?  (eg from one German unit?)

Perhaps test unit with documents lost in the chaos of 1941?   

T


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KL
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« Reply #13 on: July 16, 2011, 08:52:01 PM »

Following photo tells part of the story!!!



Note that the lighter part of the tailplate is the same colour  as ruder structure (normally under the fabric).  Parts of these planes were primed only!!!  tailplate on this plane was yellow and black!  It is possible that planes were assembled and painted in field... Shocked

for primer colour check this wreck shot down in June 29th of 1941


http://www.flickr.com/photos/saminkuvat/3842644455/

Massimo, you can also see on this photo how light and gray was A-18f.

Cheers,
KL  Smiley 
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #14 on: July 16, 2011, 11:20:11 PM »

Hi Konstantin,
you are joking, of course. Zinc chromate yellow ins't a camo color nor in air, nor on the ground. I don't see doubts that the colors were overpainted to the green.
On the Finnish wreck, the border between grey-blue and yellow is chipped, not as we see on the wartime photo.
Regards
Massimo
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