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Author Topic: Pe-2 with polichromatic camo in July 1941  (Read 25899 times)
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #30 on: August 10, 2011, 09:36:32 PM »

Hi Konstantin, Smiley
the wrecks are interesting for the shades that let see, including a dark green, an olive or brown and perhaps a light green. If they are useful to identify the unit, it is a good thing.
I don't understand your belief that the shade of yellow visible on the photo was utilized as camo color. On a bw photo, any color with the same darkness can give the same shade of grey.
What we see on that wreck is only a underlying layer of primer under the light grey, not an external color. The contours reveal that yellow has reappeared after grey has chipped off. The contours of the light painted color visible in wartime photos are different by those produced by the chipping away of grey that let see the yellow primer, that is what we see on the color photos below.

Regards
Massimo
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KL
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« Reply #31 on: August 10, 2011, 10:03:15 PM »

I don't understand your belief that the shade of yellow visible on the photo was utilized as camo color.

I don't understand how you can see dark green, brown, cream and light gray on those b/w photos.
-  Dark green 3B was discontinued in 1938
-  tobacco brown was nitro paint for fabric that never went into production
-  cream was nitro paint for fabric covered civil planes and also never went into production
-  light gray AE-9 was supposed to be overpainted according to June 1941 directive

Do you agree that the rudder structure (dur-alluminium ribs and spar) on following picture was protected with yellow ALG-1?



Do you agree that the front of the tailplate and tailcone were the same colour?

IMHO, it is possible that the plane was assembled in the unit from parts which arrived from Zavod 22 uncamouflaged.

Cheers,
KL
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JP
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« Reply #32 on: August 11, 2011, 05:29:30 AM »

Interesting discussion.

What is that white-looking color (in B&W) at the middle of the tail near the spars?
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #33 on: August 11, 2011, 06:15:30 AM »

Hi Konstantin,
Quote
I don't understand how you can see dark green, brown, cream and light gray on those b/w photos.
-  Dark green 3B was discontinued in 1938
-  tobacco brown was nitro paint for fabric that never went into production
-  cream was nitro paint for fabric covered civil planes and also never went into production
-  light gray AE-9 was supposed to be overpainted according to June 1941 directive

It was only to reference to some existed paint. However any color can be obtained by mixing paints. The colors visible on the wrecks above (light green-dark green-olive-light brown) could be taken in consideration, if you know that are related to the planes left on the ground.


Quote
Do you agree that the rudder structure (dur-alluminium ribs and spar) on following picture was protected with yellow ALG-1?
yes
Quote
Do you agree that the front of the tailplate and tailcone were the same colour?
No, it only appears so on the bw photo. Th alg-1 as we see it on the wreck isn't a camo color.
Regards
Massimo
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #34 on: August 11, 2011, 06:17:35 AM »

Hi JP,
I suppose that it's natural metal.
Regards
Massimo
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #35 on: August 11, 2011, 06:54:33 AM »

By the way, what about this wreck from Scalemodels.ru??

The caption says that was lost in 1942, if I read well. Then, why it shows brown painting?
Regards
Massimo
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KL
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« Reply #36 on: August 11, 2011, 06:49:33 PM »

Quote
Do you agree that the front of the tailplate and tailcone were the same colour?
No, it only appears so on the bw photo.

OK, this must be the end of b/w photo interpretation!  Those apper to be the same colour, but they aren't?

Check this photo for ALG-1 painted rudder structure:



and then think/consider how would yellow work in summer on a Russian airfield:







Yellow would hide planes much better than gray.  Cool AMT-1 (aka "coffee with milk") was designed for these conditions.

Cheers,
KL   


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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #37 on: August 11, 2011, 10:22:35 PM »

Hi Konstantin,
I have no doubt that some variations of ALG-1, brownish or greenish, could be utilized as camo colors.
But look at the shade found on the Pe-2:
http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/klesnikov/Fence_airfield/Pe-2No35lbls.jpg
it looks like a canary yellow. And it's likely the color visible on the strut on the bw photo.
Now, if you want, I can send to you the template of the Pe-2, you can easily modify it with photoshop and you will see that the color is too visible even on the brown grass.
Of course, it could be that they obtained a camo color, green or brown,  by mixing ALG-1 with other colors, but not the same color visible of the strut.
Regards
Massimo
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KL
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« Reply #38 on: August 12, 2011, 07:57:39 PM »

But look at the shade found on the Pe-2:

it looks like a canary yellow. And it's likely the color visible on the strut on the bw photo.

True, it was a canary yellow.  How about this hypothesis:  Sometimes before June 22nd (beginning of the GPW), rear fuselage and tailplates on the plane No 35 had been replaced with parts which came from the factory primed only.  When unit was rushed in combat planes were hastily camouflaged and yellow parts were only partially covered with green and black patches. 

BTW, what part of the plane you call "strut"??

Planes we are talking about were camouflaged during the first 10-15 days of the war.  Those who applied paint with brushes and spay-guns probably didn?t know much about camouflage theory and details of the latest order.  But still, there must have been some logic in the selection of colours.  It wasn?t ?Manchurian Influence?, ?gray for clouds? or ?yellow for dry grass? theories have slightly better chances.  In reality we don?t know what that light colour was.

On the other hand, we can deduct that parts of the plane No 35 were yellow!  Too bad only rear fuselage and tail were photographed.

Why don?t you draw just the rear fuselage and tail for this plane?

Cheers,
KL
 
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #39 on: August 12, 2011, 10:17:46 PM »

Hi Konstantin,
I strongly believe that the factory didn't deliver unpainted planes, but painted in green and light blue, and they were repainted over carefully according to a unit sketch (at least 24, 27, 35 and some other ones, maybe other ones were roughly painted); that many of these planes were painted with the same colors, even if exchanged in position, and that those colors should mask the planes on the ground or in the air. I don't think that the light color on the outside is yellow, even if casually resembles identical to that of yellow frames on a bw photo.
If you need the template to trace your drawing with photoshop, I can send it, of course.
Regards
Massimo
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KL
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« Reply #40 on: August 13, 2011, 12:42:38 AM »

I strongly believe that the factory didn't deliver unpainted planes, but painted in green and light blue....

This was true for series planes which were then distributed to the operational units.  The unit that we are talking about here was special... Wink

cheers,
KL
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JP
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« Reply #41 on: August 13, 2011, 01:48:05 AM »

It's not nice to tease, чувак.  Tongue
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KL
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« Reply #42 on: August 13, 2011, 08:05:51 AM »

It's not nice to tease, чувак.  Tongue

Seriously, it was a regiment "особого назначения" (Special Purpose)  Cool

If you need the template to trace your drawing with photoshop, I can send it, of course.

Of course, send them (with short instruction how to use them  Smiley).  I hoped you would do them.

Cheers,
KL
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KL
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« Reply #43 on: August 19, 2011, 08:45:46 PM »

Some tanks photographed in summer 1941 look very light/bright.  Those were primarily, at that time, new T-34s





those who study tank camouflage and paints, believe those T-34s were painted with then relatively new 4BO paint.

1941 4BO should be yellow-green




HTH,
KL 
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #44 on: August 19, 2011, 10:20:41 PM »

Hi Konstantin,
I can't see the photos of the tanks.
Regards
Massimo
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