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Author Topic: Pe-2 with polichromatic camo in July 1941  (Read 25871 times)
learstang
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« Reply #45 on: August 19, 2011, 10:35:43 PM »

That's strange, Massimo - I can.

Regards,

Jason
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"I'll sleep when I'm dead."

- Warren William Zevon

http://www.learstang.com
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #46 on: August 20, 2011, 07:25:57 AM »

Hi Jason,
perhaps it depends on the time and the temporarily unavailability of the server, I've tried to copy and glue the address in the navigation bar and it doesn't work either.
Regards
Massimo
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KL
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« Reply #47 on: August 20, 2011, 08:21:28 AM »



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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #48 on: August 20, 2011, 01:52:14 PM »

Hi,
now I see them, thank you.
Regards
Massimo
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KL
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« Reply #49 on: August 20, 2011, 06:10:29 PM »

Hi Massimo,  Smiley

those tanks were not gray -  simply because gray wasn't a camouflage colour.  Same approach should be applied to those June-July 1941 Pe-2.

Comments?

KL
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #50 on: August 20, 2011, 08:38:30 PM »

Hi Konstantin,
thanks have not to canouflage between clouds.
However the planes have a big variety of colors from light to dark and are represented in many photos, so it can't be a color as 4bo that is already represented by a-19f. If it is a green or a brown, it has to be very light anyway, not one of the known ones.
But, is it sure that those wrecks were from planes of the same unit?
Regards
Massimo
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KL
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« Reply #51 on: August 20, 2011, 09:10:48 PM »

However the planes have a big variety of colors from light to dark and are represented in many photos, so it can't be a color as 4bo that is already represented by a-19f.

A-19f and 4BO were very different.  Decodable and nondecodable colour
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TISO
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« Reply #52 on: August 03, 2014, 03:30:07 PM »

It's not nice to tease, чувак.  Tongue

Seriously, it was a regiment "особого назначения" (Special Purpose)  Cool
Cheers,
KL
410.PBAP ON or in original 410.пбап он i.e. пикирующий бомбардировочный авиационный полк особого назначения
Formed from test pilots of NII VVS as 1.PBAP ON renamed on 1.7.1941 to 410. PBAP ON comanded by polkovnik Kabanov Aleksandr Ivanovich. In operations from 5th to 28th of July 1941, disbanded in october 1941 and used for ressuply of 260.PBAP. Operated from Vitebsk airfield

Same debate thanks KL for hints on this interesting story:
http://imf.forum24.ru/?1-4-80-00000091-000-0-0

http://www.teatrskazka.com/Raznoe/Perechni_voisk/Perechen_12_01.html

from:
Авиация и космонавтика 2004 05-06 - ПИКИРУЮЩИЙ БОМБАРДИРОВЩИК ПЕ-2 - В. Р. КОТЕЛЬНИКОВ А.Н. МЕДВЕДЬ Д. Б. ХАЗАНОВ quote on the forum
(my translation)
Quote
Important role in bringing the Pe-2 to "performance standard" was played with creation of 410.BAP NO from the NII VVS under command of Colonel A.I. Kabanov, who was before the war as deputy head of the Institute flight part. Under his leadership in July, dive bombing was worked out. Regiment was immediately involved in combat operations in the Battle of Smolensk.
First sortie of the regiment was made ​​in full (32 crews) to bomb the crossings of the Western Dvina. The enemy suffered heavy losses.
But the regiment paid dearly. From 5th to 28th of July 1941, its losses amounted to 33 aircraft. Every third plane was not lost in aerial combat. Three Peshkas crashed, three were destroyed by German bombs on the airfield, two had to be burned during the retreat, and the disaster happened. The rest were shot down by fighters and anti-aircraft guns, making an average of less than 11 sorties. According to flight crews, such large losses were attributed to failure of weapons, as well as weakneses of the armor. Gunner Ratnikov who managed to bail out of the burning aircraft  wrote: "There is nothing more horrifying than when you see the enemy approached closely, look him literrally in the eyee and can not destroy him because of the refusal of weapons."

Enemy quickly identified weaknesses of Peshka and changed tactics of attack. If you have previously attempted to shoot down Soviet bombers on a collision course, then later experienced German pilots and foremost commander Lt. Col. V. JG 51 M?lders began recommending prosecution of Pe-2 from rear, firing short bursts from long distances, and in the event of lack of return fire closing in and shooting at point-blank with incendiary bullets into central fuel tanks.

In response to such German tactics flight and technical personnel of 410th Regiment began the search for adequate measures. In particular, immediately offered to improve the turret, changing the design of flexible ammo supply; mount side firing point with the possibility of moving the machinegun from side to side; mounting a remote machine gun installation in the tail cone (it was developed by designer Mursev). All of these improvements were adopted over time. However, 410th Regiment fought for a short time: in October 1941, it was disbanded and specialists were withdrawn to continue working in the rear.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2014, 04:33:09 PM by TISO » Logged
KL
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« Reply #53 on: August 03, 2014, 08:15:58 PM »

Same debate thanks KL for hints on this interesting story:

Thanks to Mihail Timin; he was able to identify the unit and tell the interesting story!
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TISO
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« Reply #54 on: August 03, 2014, 08:22:41 PM »

A story not widely known. Thank him for me.
And thanks for the bread crumbs  Wink
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #55 on: August 04, 2014, 08:11:03 AM »

Hi,
interesting page indeed.
For what I read, not all the camouflaged planes were of 410 PBAP. Some are of 411 BAP (or PBAP?) and eventually of other units, have I read well?
This seems to suggest that some Pe-2s were camouflaged in factory, following (not strictly) the recommandation of early 1941.
Any ideas?
Regards
Massimo
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TISO
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« Reply #56 on: August 25, 2014, 03:49:25 AM »

I'll just misuse this thread to post this pic of captured early Pe-2 with hastily added black paint:
http://miliblog.co.uk/?cat=348
http://miliblog.co.uk/?p=1957&creativepage=2
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #57 on: December 10, 2015, 05:23:14 PM »

Hi,
I've made an update of this page. I've proposed an interpretation of this camouflage partly based on the directives of May 1941.
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/pe2/pe2-earlycamo24/pe2-earlycamo24.htm
Please, let me know any comment.
Regards
Massimo
« Last Edit: February 20, 2017, 10:49:50 AM by Massimo Tessitori » Logged
Llemon
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« Reply #58 on: March 27, 2019, 12:55:36 AM »

Some additional photos all from Vitebsk. The first few are for sure the polychromatic camo.






This doesn't look like standard camo to me but also doesnt look like the other polychromes.


And another odd one. Doesn't look like poly, seems to be field applied. Just posting this because it is interesting.



From; http://imf.forum24.ru/?1-4-0-00000182-000-180-0
« Last Edit: March 27, 2019, 01:02:56 AM by Llemon » Logged
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #59 on: March 27, 2019, 07:32:10 AM »

Hi Llemon,
very interesting photos, thank you for sharing.
About the last photo of the post, I suspect that it is a 3 shades camouflage of another type, related with some that we have already seen. Note all the light parts on the tail: they could seem reflections, but a reflective surface should show the inner side of the right fin, or at least its shadow.
It is surprising to see that the central part of the photo of the plane is very confused, while the ground close to it is very sharp. Perhaps the photo was defective on its central part and some photoshopping was made to improve it, perhaps the printing is not the original one.

On the same forum, I've found a photo of a DB-3F with poly camouflage.


Regards
Massimo
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