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Author Topic: AMT-11 and AMT-12 Controversy  (Read 72041 times)
KL
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« on: August 29, 2011, 01:38:31 AM »

Two recent treads about AMT-11 & AMT-12 on ARC forums and on Britmodeller forums:

http://s362974870.onlinehome.us/forums/air/index.php?s=4b0207d23f2eda22d46a7f17c399e44f&showtopic=235605
http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?s=6909be1b77d15e828574776dfeaa8039&showtopic=72892

Again and again the same story: 
1.   photographic evidence shows high contrast between two paints
2.   ?Albom Nakrasok? is wrong
3.    Pilawskii is right.

More and more hypothesis based solely on photographic evidence.  Not only that new ?paint experts? know why Albom chips deteriorated, they know now how and why AMT-11 and AMT-12 faded (or darkened).

IMHO it?s all Pilawskii?s legacy, his reversed logic; instead of starting from official documents and using them to explain photos (or relics), he and his followers start from photographic evidence to prove how official documents (like Albom Nakrasok) are irrelevant, how there was no rules in VVS coloration, etc.

It?s strange (to me) how people believe Pilawskii ? some even accept that Pilawskii made up most of his book ? but hey, he was right about the ?Albom?!!!

Any opinions, or you are all tired?

KL   
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JP
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« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2011, 04:07:45 AM »

Некоторые люди думают, что Гитлер жил в Аргентине после войны на секретной подводной лодке.   Cheesy
« Last Edit: August 29, 2011, 05:48:59 AM by JP » Logged
learstang
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« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2011, 06:23:35 AM »

You mean Hitler didn't live in Argentina in a secret submarine after the war?  Were else did he come up with the AII Brown and IMUP colours to bedevil us poor modellers?  Quizas EP estaria el hijo secreto de Hitler?  Quien sabe?  ('Ow's zat for mixing up the yazviki!)

Saludos y до свидания,

Jason

« Last Edit: August 29, 2011, 06:25:35 AM by learstang » Logged

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JP
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« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2011, 07:49:42 AM »

In all honesty, I was about to buy these decals.  Then I looked up an image of what they looked like.



I suppose I don't have to paint them that way.   Smiley 

Some of these things will take time to die off.  A legacy as troubled as EP's and as long in the making can't be undone quickly or easily.  I think all we can do here is continue our "farcical efforts" to be clear about what we think and why, fully produce the evidence driving our thoughts/opinions, and let the others go after bright green paints if they wish. 
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2011, 08:18:53 AM »

Hi all,
I've seen that the discussion on Britmodellers has assumed a by far too emotive way. I don't want to be involved, we are discussing on colors of 70 years ago!
Regards
Massimo
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learstang
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« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2011, 05:45:17 PM »

John, I've bought those decals and they look very nice.  I learned long ago with my Shturmovik decals and instructions sheets to disregard the colours if they were obviously wrong (which they usually were) and go with what is probably (at the moment, to our best abilities) the correct colours.

Regards,

Jason
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KL
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« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2011, 11:49:52 PM »

Summary:

Tikkakoski  museum Yak-9 rudder:  darker grey FS 35042, lighter FS 36118. (cit. K. Lumppio)".


Albom Nakrasok via Humbrol 79 (French Gris Bleu Fonc?) and Humbrol 32:  Humbrol 79 is close to 36118 + FS 36081 equivalent of Humbrol 32



Orlov-Vahlamov 1999 M-Hobby: AMT-11=FS26190 + AMT-12=FS27003.  Neither 26190 nor 27003 exist as FS colours!  Most likely authors approximated numbers between two closest matches in the fan.  The closest existing FS colours in 6xxx range (gray colours) are 26187 and 26008 respectively.


There is also a possibility that 27003 was a typo; in that case authors most likely referred to 37030 (number of colours in 70xx range is very limited).  Check it at http://www.colorserver.net/showcolor.asp?fs=37030



Image saved from Scalemodels.ru forum.  AMT-7, AMT-11, AMT-12 and AMT-6 (AFAIK, Akan paints)



Pilavskii in ?Soviet Air Force Fighter Colours? (2003):  AMT- 11: FS 36375 + AMT-12: FS 36081



There is really a lot of agreement, not controversy.  Only colour that stands out is Pilawskii?s AMT-11.  It?s way too light.  Otherwise, we see a medium gray and a dark, or almost black shade of gray.

End of the story?. Cool

Cheers,
KL
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learstang
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« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2011, 12:27:36 AM »

That's a nice recap, Konstantin.  Thank you!

Regards,

Jason
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bbrought
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« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2011, 09:45:22 AM »


There is really a lot of agreement, not controversy.  Only colour that stands out is Pilawskii?s AMT-11.  It?s way too light.  Otherwise, we see a medium gray and a dark, or almost black shade of gray.


I have both the WEM and AKAN paints: Although Pilawskii's FS suggestion for AMT-12 that you quoted here looks ok, the actual WEM version has a very strong green tint to it that fits none of the other sources you showed. Maybe he changed his mind after advising WEM paints, but I trust neither his AMT-11 nor his AMT-12 interpretations. For me, one of the greatest disappointments is that WEM has so far not updated their Soviet range. The quality of their paint is superb and it is very sad that they ended up embroiled in this "controversy" due to following the wrong advice when formulating their Soviet range.
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BA Broughton
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2011, 01:04:52 PM »

Hi Konstantin,
Quote
Albom Nakrasok via Humbrol 79 (French Gris Bleu Fonc?) and Humbrol 32:  Humbrol 79 is close to 36118 + FS 36081 equivalent of Humbrol 32
to tell the truth, the acrilic AMT-11 of Akan of the chip that John has sent to me is somewhat darker than Humbrol 79, and a first sight (I hadn't the can home) I think that Humbrol 87 ( panzer grey) is closer to his chip of AMT-12, being somewhat more bluish than Humbrol 32 that has a greenish shade. Has anyone made direct comparison?


Hi Bbrought,
Quote
it is very sad that they ended up embroiled in this "controversy" due to following the wrong advice when formulating their Soviet range.
Very true. I hope that they make all the line new according to AKAN shades, maybe slightly lightened, including those shades that hasn't yet included in their acrilic line. Akan enamels are hard to be found outside Russia.
Regards
Massimo
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richard.kiss
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« Reply #10 on: August 31, 2011, 04:47:37 PM »

I hope that they make all the line new according to AKAN shades, maybe slightly lightened, including those shades that hasn't yet included in their acrilic line.

I hope too Smiley

Akan enamels are hard to be found outside Russia.

yep, that's true. we import AKAN paints from Russia to Hungary and enamels are flammable products, so arrangin import/customs procedure is too complicate.

However they started to produce all paint in acrylic type as well so it's a matter of time.
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JP
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« Reply #11 on: August 31, 2011, 05:07:03 PM »

I wonder if anyone has contacted WEM about using updated research?  My fear is they may have bought into EP's schtick and be in that camp for better or for worse.  But then again, they are a business.  If sales of suspect colors drop off sharply, they may have to notice.
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learstang
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« Reply #12 on: August 31, 2011, 06:01:33 PM »

When WEM came out with their VVS colours, I bought most of the lot.  At that time I was quite ignorant of VVS colours so I thought I was getting accurate colours - now I know I wasted over $60USD on paints.  The AMT-7 Blue wasn't too bad (although too bright), but most of the rest is rubbish.  Does anybody need any "Tractor Green" or "IMUP"?  That's a good idea about letting WEM know about their colours, John.  I may just send them an e-mail kindly requesting that they redo their VVS line.  I for one, will never buy any more of their paints until they do.

Regards,

Jason
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KL
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« Reply #13 on: August 31, 2011, 07:17:59 PM »

... Although Pilawskii's FS suggestion for AMT-12 that you quoted here looks ok, the actual WEM version has a very strong green tint to it that fits none of the other sources you showed. Maybe he changed his mind after advising WEM paints...

All profiles and drawings in Pilawskii's book and on his website have green AMT-12  




WEM's AMT-12 is also green. No 11 and 12 on the following photo are AMT-11 and AMT-12



Pilawskii never explained how or where he got this green colour.  He never explained how or where he got FS equivalent for AMT-12 either.  It would have been enough for example, if he said that the green AMT-12 was based on paint observed on restored YAK-9P in Monino.  Hopefully, he will eventually learn how to write about these things.


to tell the truth, the acrilic AMT-11 of Akan of the chip that John has sent to me is somewhat darker than Humbrol 79, and a first sight (I hadn't the can home) I think that Humbrol 87 ( panzer grey) is closer to his chip of AMT-12, being somewhat more bluish than Humbrol 32 that has a greenish shade.

True, Akan chips I got from Mario are extremely dark.  Nothing like the following image from scalemodels.ru forum



My AMT-11 and AMT-12 chips are more like AMT-12 and AMT-6!!!!  I can?t recommend their use ?as is? on models.  Lips Sealed

Cheers,
KL
« Last Edit: August 31, 2011, 07:23:08 PM by KL » Logged
learstang
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« Reply #14 on: August 31, 2011, 07:44:59 PM »

Well, gentlemen, I just sent a comment to WEM regarding their VVS colours.  I shall report on their reply.

Regards,

Jason
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