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Author Topic: AMT-11 and AMT-12 Controversy  (Read 73663 times)
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #105 on: February 09, 2012, 02:33:15 PM »

Hi,
some black- green and grey-grey profiles were known since the late '80s, aside a lot of brown-green profiles. So, one could have thought that they were the exception, not the rule. EP has simply perpetuated misconceptions born before him aside some right things. But if it was so easy to make better for an English-speaking author, why hasn't anyone made this 20 years ago?
Regards
Massimo
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KL
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« Reply #106 on: February 09, 2012, 05:38:16 PM »

some black- green and grey-grey profiles were known since the late '80s, aside a lot of brown-green profiles. So, one could have thought that they were the exception, not the rule. EP has simply perpetuated misconceptions born before him aside some right things. But if it was so easy to make better for an English-speaking author, why hasn't anyone made this 20 years ago?

In western literature, black-green and grey-grey profiles were published since 1970es, not late '80es...  older forum members will confirm this.

yes, it was imposible for western authors/profile artists to recognize Soviet standards before Vahlamov & Orlov published their works based on primary sources (in late '90es).
Only Pilawskii knows why he based his works on outdated information and why he denied Vahlamov & Orlov.

Hope this explains few things,
KL
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Pascal
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« Reply #107 on: April 23, 2012, 12:15:37 AM »

Hi,

I've just found these pics in the Yefim Gordon's Lavochkin's Piston-engined Fighters:





It is the "etalon" La-7, and it wears the splinter scheme... I've painted my Lavrinenkov's La-7 with this scheme, because the few pics I've seen about the 9 GIAP show the same drawings (work in progress):



Pascal
« Last Edit: April 23, 2012, 02:46:30 PM by Pascal » Logged

learstang
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« Reply #108 on: April 23, 2012, 01:24:02 AM »

Nice photographic confirmation of the splinter scheme, Pascal.  Keep us posted on your model, (or do you already have a thread for that?).

Regards,

Jason
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"I'll sleep when I'm dead."

- Warren William Zevon

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xan
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« Reply #109 on: April 23, 2012, 09:43:03 AM »

that's a pic of feltzer yak-9:


the splinter is evident too...
as Pascal , Idecided to applied it one of the three yaks I am doing because this plane's pic seems to have the same scheme



I used Akhan paints as they are, but the pic's colour is a little bit lighter than the reality






the model is not ended yet, I will post more pics

Xan
« Last Edit: April 23, 2012, 10:38:37 AM by xan » Logged

John Thompson
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« Reply #110 on: April 23, 2012, 02:21:43 PM »

Looks great - very realistic! The Akan paints look really good.

John
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learstang
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« Reply #111 on: April 23, 2012, 05:41:44 PM »

Yes, very nice, Xan!  The splinter camouflage looks good - different than what you normally see.

Regards,

Jason
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KL
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« Reply #112 on: April 23, 2012, 06:33:37 PM »

Following is Xan?s post at the French modeling forum at http://www.master194.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=64797&start=525

Here the pattern shown in the official guidelines of August 1943:


 That's what happens in color, this image comes from scalemodels.ru forum.


According Pilawskii, this diagram has not been applied.  this photo of yak-3 at the dork bourget him right:


 other totally refute this argument see the wing of the aircraft in this photo:


 Tessatori certainly has the proper judgment when he says that this scheme was so well implemented but spray painted, which "rounded corners" in the strict sense ...


Few comments:

According to Pilawskii, NKAP pattern was always ?organic?, never angular.  Pilawskii also says that there were other AMT-11 + AMT-12 patterns for fighters.  Pilawskki insists that other colours were in wide use in 1944-45: AII green, AII Dark Green, AII Brown, AII Light Brown etc.  Pilawskki insists that other schemes like Buchanova?s loops, hoops, boops, etc were very popular in VVS in 1944-45.

Massimo?s page about 1943-45 fighter camouflage has more about ?serpentine scheme? than about NKAP scheme.

In my opinion, between summer 1943 and May 1945 there was only one standard, official scheme ? NKAP scheme!!!!  All fighter planes made during this period complied with this scheme, ie between 20,000 and 30,000 fighters were painted in two-gray scheme!  There was no ?South Front scheme?, there was no ?Single gray scheme?, nothing else but NKAP 1943 scheme.

In 1944-45 factories fighters were sprayed, no doubts about that.  Spraying was much faster than painting with brushes.  Sprayed surface was smoother. Templates were not used (they are mentioned only in Il-2 production).  In other words, it was a free hand application and variations were natural.  Sometimes corners were rounded, some lines were curved and width of the ?overspray? varied.

So, even if lines are curved and corners are rounded, it is 1943 NKAP scheme!!!

I don?t think that the new term ?Russian splinter scheme? is correct ? word splinter wasn?t used to describe this scheme, Orlov and Vahlamov never used this term?

KL
       
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Seawinder
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« Reply #113 on: April 24, 2012, 06:10:46 AM »

According Pilawskii, this diagram has not been applied.  this photo of yak-3 at the dork bourget him right:


In my opinion, between summer 1943 and May 1945 there was only one standard, official scheme ? NKAP scheme

(snip)

So, even if lines are curved and corners are rounded, it is 1943 NKAP scheme!!

Konstantin, a couple of things: First, I don't understand what you are saying in the sentence above the overhead photo ("dork bourget him right"?)

Second, looking at that photo, there appears to be a lot of variation in the camouflage scheme on the wings. The plane in the center foreground just to left of the overhead plane's shadow, and the one to its left, have a swirl on the starboard wings that's hard to see as just a variation of the NKAP 1043 scheme.

Pip Moss
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KL
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« Reply #114 on: April 24, 2012, 09:48:48 AM »

First, I don't understand what you are saying in the sentence above the overhead photo ("dork bourget him right"?)

It's Google French: I think it's about Yak-3s at the Le Bourget airfield and how Pilawskii is right   Shocked


Second, looking at that photo, there appears to be a lot of variation in the camouflage scheme on the wings. The plane in the center foreground just to left of the overhead plane's shadow, and the one to its left, have a swirl on the starboard wings that's hard to see as just a variation of the NKAP 1043 scheme.

For me, all those planes were camouflaged according to 1943 NKAP scheme.  As I said:  sometimes corners were rounded, some lines were curved and overspray varied.

It is also posible that some (or most?) of those planes have been repainted in the field.

If it isn't 1943 NKAP scheme, what is it?  "South Front"? Loops?  Serpents?

KL
« Last Edit: April 24, 2012, 09:52:50 AM by KL » Logged
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #115 on: April 24, 2012, 11:47:23 AM »

Hi,
it is clearly the scheme of 1943, and the pattern is much more uniform than the most of black-green patterns, even if there are both rounded and angular variants represented.
The most interesting part is the variability of the contrast on the planes, perhaps due to fading, perhaps to some variability in stocks.
Regards
Massimo
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xan
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« Reply #116 on: April 24, 2012, 12:06:23 PM »

It's Google French: I think it's about Yak-3s at the Le Bourget airfield and how Pilawskii is right   Shocked
My god!  konstantin if I thought Pilawskii was right di you think I wil write in this forum Huh
you take a little piece of what I wrote and just speak about that...

the sens of the sentence is that this pic shows plane without angular scheme...
but we speak about this pic in this topic and i find your argumentation right about it, I don't understand why do you speak again about it!!!
Do you think ik I didn't agree with you I would paint  my model like that ?



I even agree with you in your opinion about the Akan paint (I appplied them without mixing in another colour)
I would prefer if you told me what did you think about the model I shown
I put ended podel pics in this topic too:

http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1337.0

about the splinter word use , I thing it's a generic way to understand the type of camouflage. Germans surely neither use that world who is often used to qualificated german's scheme...

Xan
« Last Edit: April 24, 2012, 12:09:28 PM by xan » Logged

KL
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« Reply #117 on: April 24, 2012, 07:44:48 PM »

My god!  konstantin if I thought Pilawskii was right di you think I wil write in this forum Huh
you take a little piece of what I wrote and just speak about that...

the sens of the sentence is that this pic shows plane without angular scheme...
but we speak about this pic in this topic and i find your argumentation right about it, I don't understand why do you speak again about it!!!
Do you think ik I didn't agree with you I would paint  my model like that ?

Sorry if my words sounded offensive.  That wasn't my intention... Undecided

Although I had to repeat myself, I believe this is one of the more useful treads on this forum...  I hope those who read it will understand that AMT-12 wasn't green, that both grays were darker than represented on most profiles, that 1943 scheme was widespread.

I see following as a progress: from WEM colours and Pilawskii's influence


To more realistic AKAN colours and camouflage based on documents


"Small step for mankind, giant leap for VVS modelling"  Smiley
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #118 on: April 24, 2012, 09:32:37 PM »

Hi Konstantin,
it's not kind to show the photo of a model, as an example of how not to make things, without the permission of the author.
About the colors, the photo of the planes at Bourget should discourage from being rigid on the shades. It don't show the hue of the AMT-12, but AMT-11 could appear as light as the model depicted.
Regards
Massimo
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xan
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« Reply #119 on: April 24, 2012, 10:50:10 PM »

yek,yek, massimo, don't worry, the first model is mine  Wink
it's the first yak-9 I did, the iribarne's plane, who was basque, as I am...
congretulation konstantin to find it!
I have to repeint it and will do a diorama with four planes of the first squadron of the normandie regiment in dubrovka may 1944, in the begining of the second campaign...
 This basque pilote make me discover tthe Normandie-niemen, ant the normandie niemen make discover the VVS.
Of course, I started with pilawskii book, before I started reding this forum and website...

Xan
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