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Author Topic: AMT-11 and AMT-12 Controversy  (Read 73660 times)
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #15 on: August 31, 2011, 07:48:18 PM »

Wem's owner is aware of this controversy, if I don't miss he wrote a pair of posts on ARCforum asking how could a new line of colors be done. I suppose he is waiting that something more sure will emerge and maybe he is selling the already made paints before making a new line.
About WEM paints, I suppose that they can be corrected by mixing or changing their destination.
IMUP, for example, could be similar to A-28m. It is an hypothesis, it's clear that the chip of Nakrasok has became yellowish, but it's not clear how much. For what we know, this color could really be greenish, but I hope to find some confirmation on wrecks, that seem not to show any greenish tint on the undersurfaces of planes as Il-10 and Tu-2 till now.
Regards
Massimo
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learstang
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« Reply #16 on: August 31, 2011, 08:23:05 PM »

Massimo, if "Mr. WEM" is waiting for the "Great VVS Colour Debate" to end, he may be waiting for some time.  AKAN paints do seem to be too dark to use as is on scale models; I suppose for the moment, until someone comes out with the proper paints, "faded" for scale effect, etc., I'll stick with my Testors Model Master analogues.  I use Gunship Gray for AMT-12, but I still haven't decided what to use for AMT-11 (something of a moot point, as I haven't finished any VVS fighters).  Does anyone have any suggestions?  Testors has about 100 different shades of grey, it seems.

Regards,

Jason
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JP
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« Reply #17 on: August 31, 2011, 10:04:06 PM »

Didn't [email protected] post here at some point in the past?  Would be good if he appeared here again, methinks.  If he re-does the paint line, we could give him the SWP seal of approval.   Grin
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richard.kiss
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« Reply #18 on: September 01, 2011, 07:47:29 PM »

IMHO it?s all Pilawskii?s legacy, his reversed logic; instead of starting from official documents and using them to explain photos (or relics), he and his followers start from photographic evidence to prove how official documents (like Albom Nakrasok) are irrelevant, how there was no rules in VVS coloration, etc.

It?s strange (to me) how people believe Pilawskii ? some even accept that Pilawskii made up most of his book ? but hey, he was right about the ?Albom?!!!

Dear Konstantin,

I've checked posts on ARC and BM forums and gotcha what you want to explain.

First of all important to note I really don't want to provoke you and don't wanna be obstructive since I'm neither a VVS expert nor pro aviation researcher. Just a scale modeller who intends to build accurate VVS planes as possible.

You said "Pilawskii is a charlatan" and there are several colours "made-up by Pilawskii" (for example AEh-4 Blue, Industrial Metal Primer etc...)

I agree profoundly with you, hard to comprehend how ppl believe him. However a question may arise, people why believe you?
You know, a casual modeller read a statement by EP and an other by you on ARC. Well, what's the truth? How could anyone verify any statement? Where to find the document that give him evidence?

There is the "Albom" somewhere in Russia and so many ppl talk-about it. Okay, I beleive them, it's an existing thing. How can I obtain or examine it?
Furthermore as far as I know Orlov & Vahlamov published an article in M-Hobby. How can we obtain it? Is there English translation of that?

So I hope you won't misunderstand my questions. I would just draw attention to you could try give more reference, link or evidence us to convince of the truth. You could suggest a way to examine the subject, how could get official docs (or copy of those) and to decide who is the charlatan?

Without these references one could beleive you, another one could do Pilawskii but both accepted a conception without seeing. In my opinion we need to get closer to our subject otherwise the controversy will continue without real arguments.

Yeah I know the language skill is an important issue as well. So many ppl - who interested in VVS aircraft - can't read Russian, especially in Western world. Would be nice to read translated articles or documents, OR at least obtain a copy of the original articles.

sincerely yours
Richard
« Last Edit: September 01, 2011, 07:56:51 PM by richard.kiss » Logged

KL
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« Reply #19 on: September 01, 2011, 08:45:52 PM »

Hi Richard,  Smiley

Quote
...Where to find the document that give him evidence?
...Orlov & Vahlamov published an article in M-Hobby. How can we obtain it? Is there English translation of that?
...You could suggest a way to examine the subject, how could get official docs (or copy of those)...

A lot of material is available on the Internet!  For example, for Orlov and Vahlamov 2008, use google.ru and type:
Авиаколлекция Окраска и обозначения самолетов ВВС СССР 1941- 1945 гг.
free download is available on dozens of websites.

A lot of period (1940es) technical literature and manuals have been scanned and are available for free!  Search for  Авиационное материаловедение for example.

Albom Nakrasok is not available, but it isn't crytical.  More important is to understand technology (types of paints), chronology (that is Vahlamov and Orlov), maybe camouflage theory.  Read everithing that is available and pieces of the mozaik will start to fit.

Read Pilawskii, don't look at the illustrations in his book only!!!  Use some logic and you will see that his methods are dubious.

Pilawskii visited Monino museum some 10-20 years ago and that's it. He even didn't have a digital camera! He connected with G. Petrov and used some photos from his collection for the book, but nowdays, thanks to the Internet, you can search photos and find much more then Pillawski has ever seen.

You don't need to know Russian; use on-line translator.

Good luck!!! Smiley
KL
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richard.kiss
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« Reply #20 on: September 01, 2011, 09:55:30 PM »

Thank you mate!

just now started to get Aviakolektsiya books and I'm going to study soon Smiley

ohh and how dumb I am! just now found the translation of dec-2008 issue by Massimo here:
http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=906.msg4997#msg4997

Thank god I'm such a good place:)
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learstang
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« Reply #21 on: September 01, 2011, 10:02:46 PM »

As promised gentlemen, here is the response I received from WEM:

Hi Jason,
 

We?re aware of the shortcomings of the Pilawskii research, but when we introduced our VVS line the work of Orlov & Nakrasok wasn?t even a blip on the radar. In order to revise our line, we would need paint chips of original samples to match.
 

Best regards,
John Snyder
White Ensign Models

They are aware of the problem, so that's a start.  Let's hope they will eventually redo their VVS colours to bring them more into line with "modern" research (some of the research reaches back to at least 1999 with V&O's articles in MHobby magazine).  It is interesting that they were unaware of Mr. Orlov's work and the Albom Nakrasok since that information had already appeared, albeit in Russian, well before they released their VVS line.  Still, let's wait and see if they correct their colours.  I do have to note that Mr. Snyder was commendably quick in responding to my enquiry.

Regards,

Jason  
« Last Edit: September 01, 2011, 10:05:08 PM by learstang » Logged

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KL
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« Reply #22 on: September 02, 2011, 01:01:24 AM »

We?re aware of the shortcomings of the Pilawskii research, but when we introduced our VVS line the work of Orlov & Nakrasok wasn?t even a blip on the radar. In order to revise our line, we would need paint chips of original samples to match.

Best regards,
John Snyder
White Ensign Models

They are aware of the problem, so that's a start.  Let's hope they will eventually redo their VVS colours to bring them more into line with "modern" research (some of the research reaches back to at least 1999 with V&O's articles in MHobby magazine).  It is interesting that they were unaware of Mr. Orlov's work and the Albom Nakrasok since that information had already appeared, albeit in Russian, well before they released their VVS line.  Still, let's wait and see if they correct their colours.  

Albom Vahlamov by Orlov & Nakrasok Huh?? - we will wait forever.  Cheesy
« Last Edit: September 02, 2011, 01:03:12 AM by KL » Logged
KL
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« Reply #23 on: September 02, 2011, 09:42:03 PM »

following are Akan paints as represented in Akanihin's digital catalog (before we had only scanned or photographed pained schips):



colours are compared with chips Massimo made for his colour table.

From post by M. Golovanov at  http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic_t_954_start_200.html

Cheers,
KL
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #24 on: September 03, 2011, 08:31:45 AM »

Hi,
I suppose that some correction will be needed.
Regards
Massimo
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #25 on: September 03, 2011, 10:41:30 AM »

Hi,
I've modified some shades to make them more similar to those suggested by Akanikin's chips.
Massimo
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bbrought
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« Reply #26 on: September 03, 2011, 10:47:30 AM »

following are Akan paints as represented in Akanihin's digital catalog (before we had only scanned or photographed pained schips):

Thanks for that! Up to now I was a little concerned about how dark my AKAN paints came out, compared to the scanned versions of the catalog that I have seen on the internet. At one point I even mailed some chips to Mario Holly to find out whether his also came out that dark. However, these digital samples are actually quite close to mine. My AMT-7 and -11 from AKAN's acrylic range still look a little dark compared to what I see on the monitor with these digital samples, but the AMT-12 is actually quite close to what I have. I still feel justified in lightening the paints very slightly for "scale effect" or whatever you want to call it, but I have learned to completely disregard my original very light thinking, which was obviously heavily influenced by Pilawskii's interpretation of very light blue AMT-7 and very light grey AMT-11. I knew for a long time that his green AMT-12 was just plain weird, of course...
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BA Broughton
learstang
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« Reply #27 on: October 21, 2011, 08:55:42 PM »

For what it's worth, I've now decided on an AMT-11 to go with my AMT-12 (Testors Model Master Gunship Gray, Testors #1723, FS#36118).  It's Testors Model Master Medium Gray (Testors #1721, FS#35237).  As you can see in the photograph below (this was a test where I brush-painted the colours on a Yak-9 wing), it is a fairly-dark bluish-grey colour, which seems to fit in with Mr. Orlov and Mr. Akhanikin's research, and with the Albom Nakrasok, on which they both relied.  For now, at least, that's what I'm going to go with for the two-grey fighter scheme.  They both look darker in person, and the Medium Gray looks bluer in person.  They're still lighter than what's on the AKAN digital catalogue, but to be honest, they're both about as dark as I'm willing to get on the two-grey scheme.

Regards,

Jason

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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #28 on: October 21, 2011, 11:41:52 PM »

Jason, these colors don't look grey at all.
Regards
Massimo
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learstang
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« Reply #29 on: October 22, 2011, 12:57:21 AM »

It may be your monitor, my camera, I didn't take them in daylight, etc.  I can say that even on my monitor the colours don't look like they do in person.  Here's another picture, taken in natural light that portrays them better.

Regards,

Jason

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