AMT-11 and AMT-12 Controversy

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi Jason,
this looks somewhat better.
I suggest to use a neutral background. The camera compensates the excess of one color by 'neutralizing' all the image. You could include some other known colors in the photo, as white, black and red, to allow a comparison. Just to know, is the plastic grey?
Regards
Massimo

[learstang]

The plastic is white - if I were actually painting the model in the manner I normally do, I would prime it with Light Ghost Gray, then airbrush these colours on.  I'll try your suggestions on providing some other "known" colours for comparison.

Regards,

Jason

[Seawinder]

Going back to Konstantin's very helpful recapping of the various recommendations at the top of the thread, I personally like the look of the samples using 26187 for AMT-11 and 26008 for AMT-12. In a quick experiment, I came up with a couple of simple Model Master enamel mixes that look good to me and are quite close to these references:

for AMT-11, two parts 36118 Gunship Gray to one part 36231 Dark Gull Gray. This gives a bluer hue than 26187, but in the same darkness range.

for AMT-12, one part 36118 Gunship Gray to one part Black. This gives a color very close to, but very slightly lighter than, 36008.

Pip Moss

[xan]

in this scalemodels.ru page, AMT-11 and AMT-12 are presented as a mix of AMT-7 and AMT-6
http://scalewiki.ru/%D0%B0%D0%BC%D1%82
Was it the case in the reality ?
if it's true, those two grey had to be quite blueish isn'it ?

Xan

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi Xan,
the directive of 1943 prescrived the use of AMT-11 and 12, but prescribed also the recipe for a mix of light blue and black to use, should the deliveries of the new colors have been delayed or unsufficient. 
It's possible that this mix was different enough from the colors that it had to replace, and this could explain the strong visibility of repaintings on many fighters of 1944.
Regards
Massimo

[xan]

Thanks Massimo,

if it can interest somebody we are working in tha AMT-11/AMT-12 too in our modeler forum:
http://www.master194.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=54267&p=711856#p711856
(use google translator )

here some pics with Akan ligtened with ocher colour, tamiya XF-57 at %20:


Pascal's work

and mine:



Xan

[KIKKO]

Hi all,this tread is very interesting for me that i'll go to built a 1\48 Zvezda Lavochkin la5Fn......so the discussion about Amt-11 and Amt-12 is very useful.......I have same old (but very very good!!) color brand Aeromaster and I've tryed to make a chip to know yours opinions.In the chip I 've put down the first two color Aeromaster Acrylic that like to me very close to Akah paint,then below I've put another kind of paint Model master enamel like an alternative for Amt-12.........Ciao Enrico

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi Kikko,
somehing is a bit strange... in the photo, 36118 looks darker than 36081, but in my FS catalogue it seems to be the opposite... However, I think that these colors are good enough.
 
Hi Xan,
all the photos of the Corsair seem to be greenish.... I suppose that the real colors are not so.

It would be interesting to make a comparison of these shades with mixes of AMT-7 and 6 made according to the recipe at Scalemodels.ru as sebstitutive colors. They could be very different.

Regards
Massimo

[learstang]

Enrico, as it happens I use Testors Model Master Gunship Gray for my AMT-12.  Even though it's not as dark as the AKAN AMT-12 and the Albom Nakrasok AMT-12 (which look almost black), I think it looks good, especially in 1/72nd scale.

Regards,

Jason

[KIKKO]

Hi,yes the photo don't say the truth.....the 36081 is more dark in my chip but the 36118 iis more bluish.....Tomorrow I think to try the tamiya mix suggested above......Ciao a tutti questo sito ? bellissimo.Enrico.

[KL]

IMHO, still way, way too light and bright!  Camouflage scheme like this is improbable and wrong?  

AMT-11 on this picture is as light as AE-9.  Light gray AE-9 was considered as de-masking for planes parked on airfields ? it would make any camouflage effectively useless on ground. You may remember how already in 1939 (during the Halhin-Gol conflict) gray and silver planes were spayed with green spaghetti to hide them on ground.  In 1940, light gray was stopped to be used on newly made planes.  In summer 1941, an order came to repaint top surfaces of all gray planes in green-black scheme.

In reality, 1943 two-gray scheme consisted of a medium bluish gray (call it slate) and a matt, dark (almost black) bluish gray.

A small request:
It would be really useful if somebody mixes AKAN's blue AMT-7 and black AMT-6 in ratios indicated before.  AMT-7 and AMT-6 mixed in 1 to 1 ratio can not make light blue-gray (as seen above) for sure!
AMT-7 and AMT-6 mixes were field substitutes for AMT-11 and AMT-12.  Mixes were not drastically different then the original AMT-11 and AMT-12.  It would be very useful to see contrast between the two mixes.

Happy modeling,  
KL

[Ohotnyik]

It is a difficult theme
The found color schemes tell us the Color, and thanks to Akan they can be bought.
These contain the real, and the new shades. After the first try outs I found these rather dark.
In scale modeling we usually use the ?Scale Effect? distortion. This in scale 1/48 is about 20% lightning. I tried to do this with adding 20% white.
It came out like this. This isn?t has the dirt, dulling the weather effects etc.
My model has the colors what I used until now.
Istv?n.

[KL]

It is a difficult theme
...In scale modeling we usually use the „Scale Effect” distortion. This in scale 1/48 is about 20% lightning. I tried to do this with adding 20% white.

Hi Istvan,

Scale Effect is also a difficult theme.  Adding 20% white to all colours used on a model would not make sense.  You did not add 20% white to black propeller, it remained black.  adding 20% white to red would make pink and you do not want pink stars instead of red stars.

-  I would add minimal amount of white to AMT-12 - keep it dark, same as propeller black
-  AKAN's AMT-11 is too dark anyway. Even with your 20% white it looks like the real thing (Slate gray!!!)

Anyway, IMHO, your La-7 is too light.  Your dark gray would be good for AMT-11.  Try the "darker version" with your next La-7 or Yak-3 project. 

[learstang]

Has anyone done a model in AKAN AMT-11 and 12?  I'd love to see one - it sounds like it would look like black (AMT-12) with extra dark sea grey (AMT-11).

Regards,

Jason

[Apex1701]

(KL)
> IMHO, still way, way too light and bright!  Camouflage scheme like this is improbable and wrong?   
> AMT-11 on this picture is as light as AE-9.
(Jean)
Thanks, with your help we found another AE-9 paint formula using Tamiya's.
Also, since you did not point out that AMT-12 being wrong, I think this AMT-12 paint mix is a keeper.
Tamiya paint users will be grateful.

As for the AMT-11 test, everyone agrees this is too light.
This is why I am already planning a fourth test.

As you may have read, our Master194 forum trys to find paint mixes to depict as correctly as possible the VVS colours using various paint for scale modellers.
On page 5 of that forum (see: http://www.master194.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=54267&start=100 )
you will find the unfinished results of more than 17 months worth of trials and errors done by people involded in this project.


Jean