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AMT-11 and AMT-12 Controversy
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Author Topic: AMT-11 and AMT-12 Controversy  (Read 105594 times)
Seawinder
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« Reply #90 on: January 06, 2012, 12:48:25 AM »

If anyone is interested here is a picture of an old Accurate Miniatures IL-2 I used to test Akan paints.  I sprayed Akan amt-11 and 12 out of the bottle and photographed the model in direct sunlight.

That is very interesting.  The colours look lighter than I would have thought (which is a good thing:  I've always thought that the samples of AKAN AMT-11 and AMT-12 paints straight out of the bottle looked too dark to me).  Those look similar to what I would use - Testors Model Master Gunship Gray for the AMT-12 and Medium Gray for the AMT-11.

Regards,

Jason

Hi Jason.
Having experimented with Model Master Gunship Gray (36118) in comparison with AKAN AMT-12, I assure you that the Gunship Gray will look significantly lighter. I'm still standing by Model Master British Ocean Grey (maybe darkened very slightly with black) for AMT-11, and either that or Gunship Gray mixed one-to-one with black for AMT-12, again based on comparisons with the AKAN colors.

Best,
Pip
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learstang
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« Reply #91 on: January 06, 2012, 01:08:32 AM »

If anyone is interested here is a picture of an old Accurate Miniatures IL-2 I used to test Akan paints.  I sprayed Akan amt-11 and 12 out of the bottle and photographed the model in direct sunlight.

That is very interesting.  The colours look lighter than I would have thought (which is a good thing:  I've always thought that the samples of AKAN AMT-11 and AMT-12 paints straight out of the bottle looked too dark to me).  Those look similar to what I would use - Testors Model Master Gunship Gray for the AMT-12 and Medium Gray for the AMT-11.

Regards,

Jason

Hi Jason.
Having experimented with Model Master Gunship Gray (36118) in comparison with AKAN AMT-12, I assure you that the Gunship Gray will look significantly lighter. I'm still standing by Model Master British Ocean Grey (maybe darkened very slightly with black) for AMT-11, and either that or Gunship Gray mixed one-to-one with black for AMT-12, again based on comparisons with the AKAN colors.

Best,
Pip

Pip, I need to give those a try.  I haven't started painting my La-5F with the two-grey scheme, although it's about ready for it, so now's as good a time as any.

Regards,

Jason
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Tyronesdaddy
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Posts: 57


« Reply #92 on: January 06, 2012, 06:11:04 PM »

I agree with darkened Ocean grey as a possible alternative for amt-11.  Engine Grey FS36081 is  close to Akan amt-12.
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xan
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« Reply #93 on: February 05, 2012, 09:05:12 PM »

I posted photos primarily for Istvan (aka Ohotnyk) to show how NKAP scheme was followed on upper wing surfaces of many (probably most!!!) Yaks made after the July 1943 directive was issued.

Mario has a valid point:  many modellers (and profile artists) beleive in very loose attitude toward  the standards/regulations/orders - reality was different, Soviets were hard pressed by Nazis; they did not have time to care about standards, they fought in primitive conditions, Ivan was primitive, Ivan was illiterate peasant, etc.

Pilawskii's aproach is somewhat different:  he is in love with the subject - he doesn't think anything bad about the Ivan, but his interpretation of GPW reality incorporates stereotypes popular among many modellers.  At the end, Pilawskii will allways have readers and followers among them.

More of Pilawskii's romantic interpretation of 1943 NKAP scheme:
Grib's famous Yak-9D "22" is a classic example of an actual VVS scheme based on the NKAP fighter Template, and in the realities of production these applications tended to look like this example.



How did he get this pattern is unknown, photographic evidence shows classical splinters


In all, it should be stressed that there was no real "standard" for these patterns. Simply, many factories responded by incorporating some of the NKAP's ideas into the schemes they applied to their fighter products, and by no means whatever were these the only camouflage patterns of the 1944-45 period in AMT-12/-11 colors.

Those who read his book know that he means green/dark green "loops", brown/ochre "desert" scheme, overall "wood aehrolack", etc...

Hi,
loocking this pic , Ithought about the discution we had here about the splinter scheme.
this pic tooken the day of the return of the normandie-niemen in France shows yak-3 and we can see the wing's scheme witch doesn't often matter:



1) this is not a definitive and general true at all, but anyway in those planes, ther was no splinter scheme.
2) the camo scheme is quite the same for all the planes and pilawskii scheme is quite right acording with that pic...

Xan
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #94 on: February 05, 2012, 10:08:48 PM »

Hi Xan,
an excellent image to illustrate the theme of NKAP template. The pattern is coherent enough, the colors change much, probably due to weathering. Thank you for posting this photo.
Regards
Massimo
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learstang
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« Reply #95 on: February 05, 2012, 10:30:36 PM »

It is interesting to note the very different contrast in colours between different aircraft.  Obviously in this case it's not due to different film or lighting conditions.  Also note the shadow of the photographing aeroplane (it looks like a Fieseler/Morane-Saulnier Storch).

Regards,

Jason
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KL
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Posts: 1678


« Reply #96 on: February 06, 2012, 07:08:31 PM »

1) this is not a definitive and general true at all, but anyway in those planes, ther was no splinter scheme.
2) the camo scheme is quite the same for all the planes and pilawskii scheme is quite right acording with that pic...

Hi Xan,

First, Pilyawskii?s drawing is probably based on that very same photo.

Second, the problem is what Pillawski writes about NKAP template:


Pilawskii Quoted from http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/Markings/NKAP/nkap.html
1.   These suggested schemes, in fact, were just that-- they were recommendations. They were not requirements in any sense of the word, neither was their use enforced by the Government at any time.
2.   However, there are no photographs that show any VVS fighter wearing such an angular pattern application. Indeed, this scheme is anathema to Soviet camouflage in general, which tended to be organic and rounded in execution; such angularity would be completely out of character. As such, this pattern was never painted by any of the factories to match this Template.
3.   In all, it should be stressed that there was no real "standard" for these patterns. Simply, many factories responded by incorporating some of the NKAP's ideas into the schemes they applied to their fighter products, and by no means whatever were these the only camouflage patterns of the 1944-45 period in AMT-12/-11 colors.



Xan, consider following:  about half of all Yaks produced were camouflaged in ?Gray-gray? scheme - close to 20,000 planes were painted this way!!!
What is the single, most relevant piece of information related to the coloration of those 20,000 ?gray-gray? planes?

Answer:  it is the NKAP instruction and the little diagram that accompanied it!!!!



What Pilavskii writes is BS!  If Hornat/Vahlamov/Orlov hadn?t published this diagram, western modelers (including poor Pilavskii) would still wonder whether Yaks were brown-gray or brown-green





« Last Edit: February 06, 2012, 08:58:31 PM by KL » Logged
xan
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« Reply #97 on: February 06, 2012, 10:49:59 PM »

First, Pilyawskii?s drawing is probably based on that very same photo.
I do you know it ?

the problem is what Pillawski writes about NKAP template

not a problem for me,  I don't believe what EP says and I'm not a defender of his theories...

Xan, consider following:  about half of all Yaks produced were camouflaged in ?Gray-gray? scheme - close to 20,000 planes were painted this way!!!
What is the single, most relevant piece of information related to the coloration of those 20,000 ?gray-gray? planes?


My personal search is the true camo of four planes , I'm not trying to say a true for 20 000 planes !

those planes are:

the de la poype' yak-9T:



the pouyade's yak-9T:




the de saint phalle yak-9:



and the Iribarne yak-9:



and I didn't wanted to prove anything, this pics remind me the discution we had about this subject , not more...

If Hornat/Vahlamov/Orlov hadn?t published this diagram, western modelers (including poor Pilavskii) would still wonder whether Yaks were brown-gray or brown-green
why do you write that?
are you a nostalgic of th western, and eastern worlds confrontation ? it doesn't make sens!
do you think I don't respect Hornat, vahlamov and orlov's work ?
in the 60's 1940 french camos were ridicoulous in a lot of models in France, and I'm sure that russian modelers did mount yak painted in brown and green!!!

Xan





 
« Last Edit: April 26, 2012, 01:39:12 PM by xan » Logged

KL
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Posts: 1678


« Reply #98 on: February 06, 2012, 11:33:17 PM »

Xan,
I just feel sick when modellers miss how wrong is that general picture that Pilawskii presents - no regulations, girls painting loops, etc.

Thanks to Pilawskii we are now wasting time on an irrelevant and artificial question: was there a Russian splinter camouflage or not?  Huh

Quote
and pilawskii scheme is quite right acording with that pic...

when you write something like this, it looks you are defending Mr. Pillawskii...

I still think that NKAP template is more relevant for your Yak-9s than 1945 photo....  Roll Eyes
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John Thompson
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« Reply #99 on: February 07, 2012, 10:18:14 PM »

We still have people on other forums presenting colour chips of "AEh-15", "Russian Dark Brown", and "Russian Light Brown" as being valid GPW colours. There's a couple of current threads on ARC where this "information" appears. I even posted links for Massimo's main research index page and his colours page, but I think I was wasting my time - the same guy started a new thread today, with another "Russian Dark Brown" colour chip in it. It's kind of annoying to read some of the stuff that appears elsewhere; for example, how aircraft factories were sometimes forced to finish aircraft in just any paint they could find because they had run out of the correct colour, and the paint factory couldn't deliver more! It's REALLY annoying to see things that make it sound like the Russians were hardly more than a bunch of disorganized barbarians; it gets overlooked that these disorganized barbarians with their crude Yak-9's and T-34's kicked Nazi butt all the way back to Berlin in 1945.

John
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learstang
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« Reply #100 on: February 08, 2012, 12:39:49 AM »

Amen to that, John!  I too get sick of all the rubbish there is out there about the Soviets.  For being such incompetent, illiterate peasants, they did pretty well against the Nazi supermen.

Regards,

Jason
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John Thompson
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« Reply #101 on: February 08, 2012, 02:13:48 AM »

Amen to that, John!  I too get sick of all the rubbish there is out there about the Soviets.  For being such incompetent, illiterate peasants, they did pretty well against the Nazi supermen.

Regards,

Jason

I apologize for taking this thread off-topic like this, but some of them post this garbage with such confidence that what they say is true - I still remember reading a thread somewhere where the question was whether A-20 bombers supplied under lend-lease were used by the VVS with their original American seat/shoulder belts or were the belts replaced with Russian-style equipment. One of the "experts" answered quite specifically that most Russian aircraft of that period had nothing more than lap beltsRoll Eyes

I posted a rather rude reply myself, including an image of a pre-war Russian biplane with the shoulder harness clearly visible...

John
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learstang
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« Reply #102 on: February 08, 2012, 02:39:32 AM »

Amen to that, John!  I too get sick of all the rubbish there is out there about the Soviets.  For being such incompetent, illiterate peasants, they did pretty well against the Nazi supermen.

Regards,

Jason

I apologize for taking this thread off-topic like this, but some of them post this garbage with such confidence that what they say is true - I still remember reading a thread somewhere where the question was whether A-20 bombers supplied under lend-lease were used by the VVS with their original American seat/shoulder belts or were the belts replaced with Russian-style equipment. One of the "experts" answered quite specifically that most Russian aircraft of that period had nothing more than lap beltsRoll Eyes

I posted a rather rude reply myself, including an image of a pre-war Russian biplane with the shoulder harness clearly visible...

John

To continue off-topic for just one more post, I thought the Soviets just used a rope looped around an old vodka box (which they used as a seat, not having real seats to sit on), with the rope tied around their waist, as they finished off the last of the vodka.  And let's not forget the stupid old Soviets using a ring and bead sight on the Shturmovik.  Of course, this was done after it was found that the PBP-1 reflector gunsight didn't work that well against ground targets, and had the rather unfortunate habit of braining pilots upon crash-landing.  From these Russophobes you never get the real reason behind some of the apparently primitive equipment the Soviets used (they worked, they didn't freeze at 50F below zero, they were easy to repair, etc.)  It's always frustrating dealing with ignorance, John.

Regards,

Jason
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #103 on: February 08, 2012, 09:00:15 AM »

Hi Konstantin,
Quote
What Pilavskii writes is BS!  If Hornat/Vahlamov/Orlov hadn?t published this diagram, western modelers (including poor Pilavskii) would still wonder whether Yaks were brown-gray or brown-green
The work of EP is full of errors, no doubt, but we have to take in account that the work of Vaklamov and Hornat was nearly unknown in the west, and that 'colors of the falcons' was published after the site of EP and has copied some things from him; besides it is scarcely known.
So, many western modellers knew of black-green and grey-grey camouflages from the site of EP, else they could have continued to paint models in brown and green for some years more.
Regards
Massimo
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KL
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« Reply #104 on: February 08, 2012, 07:36:44 PM »

So, many western modellers knew of black-green and grey-grey camouflages from the site of EP, else they could have continued to paint models in brown and green for some years more.

This could be true for modelers borne in 1980es and 1990es?  But, it?s really irrelevant:  black-green and gray-gray schemes were known long before Pilawskii!!!
Yak-3 in French Musee de?lAir was painted in gray-gray scheme in 1974



John Weal did use black-green and gray-gray schemes for some of his profiles in mid and late 1970es



Most of the profiles published in Finnish ?Red Stars in the sky? series in late 1970es and 1980es were actually correctly painted!



This was probably related to illustrations that appeared in Soviet Union in 1970es and 1980es in magazines like ?Modelist-konstruktor?, ?Krila Rodini?, ?Aviatsiya i Kosmonavtika? etc.







The problem was (than as it is now) to weed out information that wasn?t accurate, like this one


Massimo,
can you tell how did Pilawskii help?  Did he point to errors, or did he promote them?  Did he point to the accurate sources (Vahlamov and Orlov) or he denied them?  Did he make anything clear, or he just confused modelers???
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