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Author Topic: FS aproximation for AII Green and question for Massimo re AMT-4 FS references  (Read 24316 times)
Seawinder
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« on: October 20, 2011, 05:17:32 AM »

I personally find FS references helpful for getting some idea of what various colors looked like. Nobody, it seems, has posited a reliable FS approximation for AII Green (I discount the reference given in SAFFC). Would it be possible for someone to do so, or at least to offer a qualitative comparison of that color and AMT-4? I should also like to know the significance of the two FS references for AMT-4 (24102 & 24151) given in Massimo's color chart (among others). Fresh vs. faded? Or is the actual shade somewhere in between?

Thanks!
Pip Moss
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learstang
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« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2011, 05:23:18 AM »

Good question, Pip!  That's one I've been still struggling with for some time.  I've never been satisfied with what I've chosen for AMT-4 - Testors Model Master Green, as it seems too light for me.  If someone could come up with a better Model Master equivalent, I'd be eternally grateful (I prefer Testors over Humbrol, Vallejo, Mr. Color, etc. because they are enamel and I can find them easily).

Regards,

Jason
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KL
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« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2011, 07:11:31 AM »

Hi Pip,
IMHO, there isn't a simple answer on your question (two magic 5-digit numbers for AII Z and AMT-4).

Problem is that FS really can not address differences between two paints:

-  AII Z was glossy, slightly darker olive green. AII Z was decodable - on b/w photos it was usually darker then grass and foliage
-  AMT-4 was matt, brighter olive green.  It was nondecodable - on b/w photos it blended better with grass and foliage


If you have in your collection a 1942 Yak and 1940 I-16 you would have to exaggerate the difference between two olive greens.  I-16 should be darker and glossy, Yak should be matt and brighter.  Difference between the real paints was very subtle.

Problem No. 2 is the vast amount of information on the internet, most of it impossible to prove.  Massimo quoted two FS values (IMHO, from Orlov and Vahlamov and from Hornat???), but there are many many, more just to add to the confusion.

If I were you, I would forget all those theories about "New" and "Old".  There are many tales how Soviet paints faded within weeks, peeled off within months etc.  That is not what we can see on period photos.  Plus, there are many cases when paints have survived half a century or more.  Anyway, ?faded?, ?old?, etc are only guesses by different authors.  For weathering and aging (during the service, not after 50 years) use your modeling skills and artistic license; don?t go with what Pilawskii say.

Try to understand what these colours were and you will not need FS equivalents.

Hope this helps (a little).
KL

« Last Edit: October 20, 2011, 05:28:46 PM by KL » Logged
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2011, 02:19:04 PM »

Hi Pip,
to avoid that someone else gives wrong interpretations on what I have written, I'll clarify that both FS 24102 and 24151 are given by Vaklamov and Orlov on their article on M-Hobby 2/99, pag.23. For what I have understood, it's the result of their comparison with the chip of AMT-4 of the alboom nakrasok, that is not perfectly identical to any of the fs  colors.
About the fading: veterans said that the color turned to yellowish with fading. After 70 years, the pieces have turned to a relatively bright green, the color of the chromium oxyde, the most permanents of the pigments utilized.

Hi Konstantin,
Quote
don?t go with what Pilawskii or Massimo say.
After you have repeated so many times about the incompetence of Pilawskii, this comparison sounds very offensive.

Regards
Massimo
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KL
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« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2011, 05:32:27 PM »

Hi Massimo,
Sorry, I had no intention to offend you. 

Cheers,
KL
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John Thompson
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« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2011, 06:51:03 PM »

Good question, Pip!  That's one I've been still struggling with for some time.  I've never been satisfied with what I've chosen for AMT-4 - Testors Model Master Green, as it seems too light for me.  If someone could come up with a better Model Master equivalent, I'd be eternally grateful (I prefer Testors over Humbrol, Vallejo, Mr. Color, etc. because they are enamel and I can find them easily).

Regards,

Jason

Try these:
AMT-4: MM 1713 Medium Green FS34102
AIIz: MM 1710 Dark Green FS34079

Note that there is more than one Model Master "Dark Green" - MM 1764 is also called Dark Green, but it's got less brown and more blue in it, and is supposed to be matched to FS34092.

Thanks for the comparison between AIIz and AMT-4, Konstantin - very helpful!

John
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Seawinder
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« Reply #6 on: October 20, 2011, 07:15:26 PM »

Thanks, Konstantin and Massimo, for the replies. Hi Jason: I also am not satisfied with Model Master 34102 Medium Green as an approximation of AMT-4. It compares rather poorly with Akan (acrylic) AMT-4, which is somewhat darker, but mainly has more yellow -- seems similar to a shade in the Polly Scale line called German Dark Olive, IIRC.

The Eduard I-16 kit gives Mr. Color (not enamel, but solvent based and great stuff) no. 136 for the green, which apparently is supposed to be AII z. I'm going to take a trip to my LHS, get some, and browse other possible greens in the Model Master line. For my part, if I can find an easy mix of a couple of shades that gets close, I'll take that route.

Pip Moss
« Last Edit: October 20, 2011, 07:17:59 PM by Seawinder » Logged
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2011, 07:29:48 PM »

Hi Konstantin,
never mind, it's all right.
Regards
Massimo
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KL
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« Reply #8 on: October 21, 2011, 08:32:54 AM »

Hi Pip,

According to Vahlamov and Orlov,  FS 34095 is  equivalent of AII Z (Green) , with a note that AII Z was slightly darker and glossy.
Following is Mig-3 wing preserved in Finland, painted in AII Z  




IMHO, Vahlamov and Orlov meant that the actual shade of AMT-4 was somewhere in between FS 24102 & FS 24151
Following is Lagg-3 fuselage from Finland with preserved AMT-4



Hope it is clear now.  Cool
KL
« Last Edit: October 23, 2011, 11:26:00 PM by KL » Logged
Seawinder
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« Reply #9 on: October 21, 2011, 04:37:38 PM »

According to Vahlamov and Orlov,  FS 3095 is  equivalent of AII Z (Green) , with a note that AII Z was slightly darker and glossy.

IMHO, Vahlamov and Orlov meant that the actual shade of AMT-4 was somewhere in between FS 24102 & FS 24151

KL

Hi Konstantin. That's just brilliant. Many thanks for posting the references and the pics.

Pip
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Seawinder
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« Reply #10 on: October 23, 2011, 10:54:14 PM »

Hi Pip,

According to Vahlamov and Orlov,  FS 3095 is  equivalent of AII Z (Green) , with a note that AII Z was slightly darker and glossy.
Following is Mig-3 wing preserved in Finland, painted in AII Z  

IMHO, Vahlamov and Orlov meant that the actual shade of AMT-4 was somewhere in between FS 24102 & FS 24151
Following is Lagg-3 fuselage from Finland with preserved AMT-4

Hope it is clear now.  Cool
KL

Hi again, Konstantin.
One question: what is the digital source of the FS samples you supplied with the two photographs? Am I right in assuming they're not photographs of actual paint chips?

Pip
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KL
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« Reply #11 on: October 23, 2011, 11:25:33 PM »

what is the digital source of the FS samples you supplied with the two photographs? Am I right in assuming they're not photographs of actual paint chips?

http://www.colorserver.net/showcolor.asp?fs=34095

http://www.colorserver.net/showcolor.asp?fs=24151+24102

http://www.colorserver.net/showcolor.asp?fs=24151+24102+34095

Correction: FS aproximation for AII Green is FS 34095
« Last Edit: October 23, 2011, 11:27:49 PM by KL » Logged
Seawinder
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« Reply #12 on: October 24, 2011, 06:11:19 AM »

I've just finished some trial mixes in an attempt to get an acceptable AMT-4 using Model Master enamels. All the mixes I tried used Interior Green 34151 as one of the elements. Other elements included Dark Green 34079, Medium Field Green 34095, and Medium Green 34102. Comparisons were made with my copy of FS 595B with the three-column pages of small paint chips.

First off, IMHO, none of the paints straight up is a very good match for its FS reference. 34079 is too light and too green; 34095 is too light (closer to 34097); 34102 is too green (also closest to 34097); and 34151 is too bright and not olive enough.

Second, my goal was a shade somewhere between 34102 and 34151 (I know the actual AMT-4 had a bit more sheen -- more like a 2xxxx -- but of course all the MM paints are flat). I figured it would also want to be a bit yellower than 34102 and a bit greener than 34151.

Third, I wanted simple mix ratios using just two colors. I'm not into the 22-to-8-to-6-to-2 sorts of things.

OK, here's what I found:

Mix 1: 34102 and 34151 1-to-1: a bit greener and a bit lighter than 34102; darker and greener than 34151
Mix 2: 34095 and 34151 1-to-1: very similar to Mix 1, but still greener; quite close to 34097
Mix 3: 34079 and 34151 1-to-1: very close to 34102 but a tad brighter and greener; darker and greener than 34151
Mix 4: 34079 and 34151 2-to-3: a bit lighter and yellower than 34102; greener and a bit darker than 34151

Of the four, I like Mix 4 the best. It's not too green or too yellow, and it definitely seems like a middle ground between 34102 and 34151.

I also want to mention a couple of Mr. Color shades I tried. Their No. 136 Russian Green 2 looks like a good match for AIIz -- to my eyes the right hue but perhaps a tad light -- and their No. 126 Mitsubishi Interior Green is IMHO quite a good choice for AMT-4. It's similar to my Mix 4, but has a slightly more olive green hue, close to 34151 but slightly darker.

Hope any of this is helpful.

Pip Moss

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learstang
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« Reply #13 on: October 24, 2011, 06:34:03 AM »

It's very helpful, Pip!  Thank you!  Could you post some photographs of your results?  That would be very helpful, indeed.  I'm getting ready to order some MM greens I haven't tried yet.  One paint I definitely am going to get (I know I've used it in the past, but I can't seem to find it now) is Interior Green.  I'll let you know how my tests come out.  I still haven't given up hope on finding a reasonable equivalent to AMT-4 straight out the bottle.

Regards,

Jason
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Seawinder
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« Reply #14 on: October 24, 2011, 07:28:51 AM »

It's very helpful, Pip!  Thank you!  Could you post some photographs of your results?  That would be very helpful, indeed.  I'm getting ready to order some MM greens I haven't tried yet.  One paint I definitely am going to get (I know I've used it in the past, but I can't seem to find it now) is Interior Green.  I'll let you know how my tests come out.  I still haven't given up hope on finding a reasonable equivalent to AMT-4 straight out the bottle.

Regards,

Jason

Hi Jason.

I'll try to get some photos, but it may take a couple of days or so. I don't think you're going to find any one Model Master paint that works well straight up.

Pip
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