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Author Topic: FS aproximation for AII Green and question for Massimo re AMT-4 FS references  (Read 25807 times)
learstang
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« Reply #15 on: October 24, 2011, 08:14:23 AM »

You never know.  I found a reasonable equivalent to AMT-1 in an armour colour - Afrika Dunkelgrau '42.

Regards,

Jason
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Seawinder
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« Reply #16 on: October 25, 2011, 09:44:18 PM »

Here's my best attempt at some photographic documentation. The picture is a composite created in PhotoShop from 5 digital photos. Each photo contains the FS 595B color chips for 34102 and 34151 plus a paint chip of the color mix. Color mix paint chips were sprayed on card stock and cut out. Lighting is florescent; I mounted the camera on a tripod to keep the angles and distances constant. I used manual exposure with a long enough setting to give a decent white for the background paper (visually judged). Still, bear in mind that the shades achieved are valid for comparison only. I wouldn't know how to go about taking a photometrically accurate picture of an FS chip.



Based on this go-round, I think I've changed my opinions. I think the best looking mixes are 35079 plus 34151 1-to-2, and 34095 plus 34151 1-to-1.

Pip
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learstang
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« Reply #17 on: October 25, 2011, 10:21:05 PM »

Thank you, Pip!  Great work there!  I've just ordered some more Greens from Testors so I'll report on my experiments when I receive them.  One of them is the Italian Olive Green I see you have.

Regards,

Jason
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Seawinder
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« Reply #18 on: October 25, 2011, 11:44:57 PM »

You're welcome. Hope it helps. I must say, as I look at the pics, all the actual paint samples are a bit more yellowish, which is probably better.

Pip
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Seawinder
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« Reply #19 on: November 06, 2011, 11:53:54 PM »

FWIW, here's a photo of what I think is a good non-acrylic approximation of AMT-4: Mr. Color No. 126. I mentioned this shade in an earlier post; it's labeled as an interior color for Japanese aircraft. It's close in hue but just slightly lighter and yellower than the FS chip for 34102: it's just a bit greener and darker than the chip for 34151. I prepared the photo by doing a mock camouflage application with Testors Black. I then applied Mr. Color clear gloss followed by Mr. Color Semi-Gloss. I think the combination is quite convincing, and it's what I plan to use when I get around to my Yak-1 and La-5.



HTH.
Pip
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learstang
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« Reply #20 on: November 07, 2011, 12:47:47 AM »

I must say that looks quite nice, Pip, thank you for the photograph!  I received my paints and did do my test by brushing them onto some sheet plastic, and the paints came out a little too dark, so I thought maybe I should spray them onto a Light Ghost Gray primer, as I do when I build my models, but I never did get around to testing that out.  To make a long story short, I think I'm going to use Testors Model Master Interior Green (Testors #1715, FS34151) as my out-of-the-bottle AMT-4.  Probably not as good as your Mr. Color No. 126, but the next black/green model I do I'm going to use it to see how it looks.  I may have to get me that Mr. Color No. 126 though; that does look good!  I'd definitely like to see them on your Yak and La-5 (I happen to be building an La-5 now that I'm going to do in the black/green scheme).

Regards,

Jason
« Last Edit: November 07, 2011, 03:20:48 AM by learstang » Logged

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Seawinder
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« Reply #21 on: November 07, 2011, 03:10:16 AM »

I must say that looks quite nice, Pip, thank you for the photograph!  I received my paints and did do my test by brushing them onto some sheet plastic, and the paints came out a little too dark, so I thought maybe I should spray them onto a Light Ghost Gray primer, as I do when I build my models, but I never did get around to testing that out.  To make a long story short, I think I'm going to use Testors Model Master Interior Green (Testors #1715, FS34151) as my out-of-the-bottle AMT-4.  Probably not as good as your Mr. Color N. 126, but the next black/green model I do I'm going to use it to see how it looks.  I may have to get me that Mr. Color No. 126 though; that does look good!  I'd definitely like to see them on your Yak and La-5 (I happen to be building an La-5 now that I'm going to do in the black/green scheme).

Hi Jason. I think the Testors 34151 is definitely a good choice (and better than their 34102) if you're going to use something out-of-the-bottle and unmixed. It's also, I think, easy to tweak with a bit of one of the other greens (their 34079 and 34095 in particular) if you want to take it a bit darker/greener. I still recommend the Mr. Color 126, if only to get acquainted with what I think is an excellent line of paints for us fume-sniffers!

Pip
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mholly
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« Reply #22 on: November 07, 2011, 03:38:18 AM »

Quote
FWIW, here's a photo of what I think is a good non-acrylic approximation of AMT-4: Mr. Color No. 126. I mentioned this shade in an earlier post; it's labeled as an interior color for Japanese aircraft.
I beg to disagree i.e. that Mr.Color 126 (Mitsubishi Interior Green) is good approximation of AMT-4 (and btw this paint is not very good for "Mitsubishi" interior green either). Reason why I say that is that I tried it myself as an alternative for AIIz (which was, as we know, darker than AMT-4). It looked OK in the bottle, even as a sample on a piece of white plastic but when I painted the whole model it was "not it" in comparison to Akan AIIz. This color is too bright, with too much green chroma and not enough yellow.
Btw your samples in earlier post also show lack of yellow. It may be due to photography and comp.monitors though, I don't know.
Orlov did say however that there are no good matches for VVS colors in FS system (which makes a lot of sense).
Cheers,
Mario
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Seawinder
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« Reply #23 on: November 07, 2011, 05:30:13 AM »

Quote
FWIW, here's a photo of what I think is a good non-acrylic approximation of AMT-4: Mr. Color No. 126. I mentioned this shade in an earlier post; it's labeled as an interior color for Japanese aircraft.
I beg to disagree i.e. that Mr.Color 126 (Mitsubishi Interior Green) is good approximation of AMT-4 (and btw this paint is not very good for "Mitsubishi" interior green either). Reason why I say that is that I tried it myself as an alternative for AIIz (which was, as we know, darker than AMT-4). It looked OK in the bottle, even as a sample on a piece of white plastic but when I painted the whole model it was "not it" in comparison to Akan AIIz. This color is too bright, with too much green chroma and not enough yellow.
Btw your samples in earlier post also show lack of yellow. It may be due to photography and comp.monitors though, I don't know.
Orlov did say however that there are no good matches for VVS colors in FS system (which makes a lot of sense).
Cheers,
Mario

1. I agree that Mr. Color 126 is too bright for AIIz. IMO Mr. Color 136 is a better approximation (although I'm not saying it's necessarily the best available -- that's another issue AFAIC).
2. There is indeed, to my eye, more yellow in the samples I used for the earlier post, as well as the Mr. Color 126, than what came through in the photographs I posted. You probably will have noticed that the photos of the actual chips were similarly off. I was trying merely to indicate the relative closeness of the various samples to the color chips.
3. As I stated in my post above, comparing Mr. Color 126 to my FS 595B book chips, I find it to be not far away from either 34102 or 34151. Also a small bit yellower than 34102 and a bit greener than 34151. If we go by Mr. Orlov's recommendation of those two references (and also Konstantin's opinion that the "real" AMT-4 is somewhere in between, it's as close as anything I've found, and a lot closer than Akan's acrylic representation, at least in comparison to the two FS chips.
4. It's easy to dismiss FS references, but in the absence of artifacts that we average modelers can observe directly (not through the veil of digital photography and computer monitors), it's really as good a way as any other to get in the ballpark, and I don't hope to do any better than that.
5. (really off topic, but you brought it up) Information found at J-aircraft.com states that Mitsubishi cockpit color was close to U.S. Interior Green (roughly 34151) but a bit darker, which would seem to make the Mr. Color 126 a pretty good representation.

Pip Moss
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mholly
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« Reply #24 on: November 07, 2011, 09:00:14 AM »


Quote
As I stated in my post above, comparing Mr. Color 126 to my FS 595B book chips, I find it to be not far away from either 34102 or 34151. Also a small bit yellower than 34102 and a bit greener than 34151. If we go by Mr. Orlov's recommendation of those two references (and also Konstantin's opinion that the "real" AMT-4 is somewhere in between, it's as close as anything I've found, and a lot closer than Akan's acrylic representation, at least in comparison to the two FS chips.
Well it proves again how subjective the visual comparisons are. I compared C126 to FS deck again (to a model painted in it) and find it closer to 34102. 34151 is rather off, lighter, yellower (not "a bit"), just different "character" that's why, going back to it's "Japanese application", I maintain that C126 is not (unfortunately) a very good representation of Mitsubishi built Zero interior color out of the bottle.
Quote
It's easy to dismiss FS references, but in the absence of artifacts that we average modelers can observe directly (not through the veil of digital photography and computer monitors), it's really as good a way as any other to get in the ballpark, and I don't hope to do any better than that.
I'm not dismissing FS, use it frequently, but we should be careful in matching its values to a paint color which was created by specific standards NOT conforming to FS. Orlov and Akanikhin studied TU, mixing formulas, fragments, and etalons of VVS paints (not only "Albom Nakrasok" which is the common misunderstanding). Therefore I trust that Akan AMT-4 is the best "full-scale" hobby paint available. Therefore I was suprised that you were "unimpressed". On the other hand I fully understand one's preference for certain hobby paint brand (mine is Gunze). However better equivalents (in other hobby paint) need to be found. 34151 and around it is not. 34102 is closer but it's not it either. Therefore the proposed interpolation between these two just cann't be the correct path. Btw Orlov himself was not happy at all with quoting these FS swatches. It was "the best he could do at the time" and in the later publication of his work he abandoned any attempts of matching VVS colors to FS.
Cheers,
Mario
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #25 on: November 07, 2011, 02:39:57 PM »

Hi Mario, Pip and Jason,
Quote
I'm not dismissing FS, use it frequently, but we should be careful in matching its values to a paint color which was created by specific standards NOT conforming to FS. Orlov and Akanikhin studied TU, mixing formulas, fragments, and etalons of VVS paints (not only "Albom Nakrasok" which is the common misunderstanding). Therefore I trust that Akan AMT-4 is the best "full-scale" hobby paint available. Therefore I was suprised that you were "unimpressed". On the other hand I fully understand one's preference for certain hobby paint brand (mine is Gunze). However better equivalents (in other hobby paint) need to be found. 34151 and around it is not. 34102 is closer but it's not it either. Therefore the proposed interpolation between these two just cann't be the correct path. Btw Orlov himself was not happy at all with quoting these FS swatches. It was "the best he could do at the time" and in the later publication of his work he abandoned any attempts of matching VVS colors to FS.

The difficulty to match a non-FS color with the FS catalogue is absolutely true, as well as the 'color depth', that is the fact that two colors could appear identical under a light and different under another light. But the choice of Orlov to remove the FS equivalences from his recent texts is wrong, in my idea. An approximate information is better than no information at all. From the view of a modeler and of an illustrator, it's of scarce interest to know if a paint is called AMT-4 or A-24m if there is not an idea of its look. The scans of colors visualized by the monitors are only indicative. FS catalogue is a resource that can be condivided by distant people, so are much more useful.
Besides, all the chips on which researchers are working are 65 years old. I think that the uncertainty on eventual variations of color are much wider than the difference between 34151 and 34102.
Another thing: let's think to the AII green proposed by Akanihin (replica of a paint found on fabric from a factory) and the color found inside the I-153 of Bourget. I had the impression that they are not identical, and the color found in France is lighter. What is the problem? Misidentification of paints? Alterations during the service? Alteration during the last 65 years? And what is the best strategy, to attain to one as representative of thousands of planes, to mediate between all the exibits, to extrapolate how it could have appeared when new?
The idea to use AKAN paints as a reference is the best available, in absence of better sources, but let's take in consideration that they are not surely identical to the paints of 65 years ago, and in some cases, as the AE-9, could have been misidentified.
Besides I would be sure that the comparison made by a spectrometer, that I suppose made between a dry old sample and fresh acrilic paint, is not altered when acrilic paint dries; my acrilics often darken with drying, and someone wrote that AKAN acrylics appear darker than the equivalent AKAN enamels.
Of course, the research and publication of color comparisons is highly useful for modelers, and it could be good to resume these results in a large table, when sufficient data will be available.  But one should know that all this is an approximation.
Regards
Massimo
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KL
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« Reply #26 on: November 07, 2011, 06:39:15 PM »

.. a good non-acrylic approximation of AMT-4: Mr. Color No. 126... it's labeled as an interior color for Japanese aircraft. It's close in hue but just slightly lighter and yellower than the FS chip for 34102: it's just a bit greener and darker than the chip for 34151. I prepared the photo by doing a mock camouflage application with Testors Black. I then applied Mr. Color clear gloss followed by Mr. Color Semi-Gloss.



IMHO, the hue of your AMT-4 is OK.  Smiley  At least what I see on my screen...  Wink
Except that it's too glossy for my taste!!!  AMT colours were matt.

to achieve more convincing black-green scheme consider following:
-your black is "too black" and too glossy.  All nitro-cellulose laquers were transparent (85-90% opacity).  there should be 2 coats of green paint, black was usually applied as a single coat.  In that case some (minimal amount!) of the green could be seen through black.
-your overspay is too wide for 1:72

good luck,
KL   
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Seawinder
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« Reply #27 on: November 07, 2011, 07:39:09 PM »


IMHO, the hue of your AMT-4 is OK.  Smiley  At least what I see on my screen...  Wink
Except that it's too glossy for my taste!!!  AMT colours were matt.

to achieve more convincing black-green scheme consider following:
-your black is "too black" and too glossy.  All nitro-cellulose laquers were transparent (85-90% opacity).  there should be 2 coats of green paint, black was usually applied as a single coat.  In that case some (minimal amount!) of the green could be seen through black.
-your overspay is too wide for 1:72

good luck,
KL   


Hi Konstantin. Thanks for your comments. I was laboring under the misconception that the AMT paints were semi-gloss. Thanks for setting me straight on that. I think with a proper flat coat the black would be sufficiently toned down -- it doesn't take much to lighten it significantly. As for the overspray, I just tossed the black on hurriedly to show the contrast with the green. I actually work in 1/48 FWIW.    Smiley
Pip
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Seawinder
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« Reply #28 on: November 07, 2011, 08:03:23 PM »

Hi Mario, Pip and Jason,

The difficulty to match a non-FS color with the FS catalogue is absolutely true ...
Regards
Massimo

Thanks, Massimo, for your as always reasoned reply. Reading it, I realized that I had not been as reasoned or objective in the opinions I had stated about AKAN's AMT-4 in earlier post. Part of my reaction was due to what I found to be its poor covering behavior over bare plastic. This morning I decided to revisit it with a view to comparing it more objectively with the FS paint chips. This time I applied it to a surface that already had some flat gray on it; the AKAN AMT-4 went down much better -- it's behavior was similar to AKAN's AMT-7 which I used successfully on my Il-2 build. In order to make better matches with the surfaces of the FS chips, I applied a clear flat coat over the AKAN AMT-4.

IMO, AKAN's AMT-4 most closely matches FS 34096 although it is a bit yellower. It is a real olive color, which I think means it has some red in it, taking it in a brown direction when compared to purer greens and yellow-greens. It is browner and slightly darker than 34102; it's character is not far from 34151 but it's much darker.

This raises some questions:

How do we explain the apparent discrepancy between AKAN's AMT-4 and the AMT-4 shown in the photograph of the LaGG fuselage posted many places including earlier in this thread, which shows a much purer yellowish green?

If AKAN's AMT-4 is the best extant approximation, why did Vahlamov and Orlov offer 34102 and/or 34151 as FS approximation(s) when there appears IMO to be at least one chip that's closer?

Finally, as a modeler trying to get reasonably close, am I aiming at something in the direction of a light olive drab, a yellow-green, or something in between?

Pip
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #29 on: November 07, 2011, 09:24:01 PM »

Hi Konstantin,
Quote
AMT colours were matt.
For what I know, AMT were a bit semigloss when new, while A-x-m were really matt. For example, here http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/1941-43/1941-43.html there are many semigloss planes obviously painted with AMT colors.

Hi Pip,

Quote
This raises some questions:

How do we explain the apparent discrepancy between AKAN's AMT-4 and the AMT-4 shown in the photograph of the LaGG fuselage posted many places including earlier in this thread, which shows a much purer yellowish green?

I suppose that color has become greener with time because the chromium oxyde, green, is a very stable pigment.  However I wouldn't go in the brownish direction, because veterans report that it became yellowish, so if one exaggerates with yellow or green, he can always say that it's a weathered color. It's an opinion, of course.

Regards
Massimo
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