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Author Topic: Aleksandr Nicolayevich Yefimov 198TH shAP Black 2?  (Read 10218 times)
barneybolac
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« on: April 13, 2012, 03:38:10 AM »

I stumbled across a partial picture of his plane & I was wondering what profiles would best suit the appearance of this photo?

















Or would it be none of the above?  Grin
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #1 on: April 13, 2012, 08:22:58 AM »

Hi Barneybolac,
I've seen both the photo and the drawings before, but I have never connected them.
In first place, the white on the most of the tail is an irreguar winter paint; the tip don't look blue at all, but uniform white. I've some doubts about the color of the band on the fuselage: it could be white or light blue, possibly the same of the undersurfaces. I wonder if there is any written report of the use of blue.
The nose of the plane is scarcely visible, but I guess it's painted with winter finish, including the tops of the prop blades. I wonder if there is any source about the nose and the use of a blue tip, a detail on which all the drawings agree.
The star on the fuselage is very moved down, I've seen this on some earlier straight-wing with black-green camo built by Zavod 30; it is certainly a measure to reduce the visibility from above.
However, the image shows a tall aerial mast, introduced in the late summer/fall of 1943, and this makes sure that the base camo should be green/grey/brown; this leaves open the possibility both of straight-winged and of arrow plane, being the arrow introduced in late 1943/early 1944. The shape in the photo suggests an arrow, else the wing dihedral on the leading edge should be more evident.
If the plane is built by Zavod 30 as suggested by the moved down star, the wings have to be wooden.
Regards
Massimo
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KL
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« Reply #2 on: April 13, 2012, 09:27:15 AM »

Phot is dated as January 1945, airfield Torun, Poland.  If this is true than it can not be "winter camouflage"!

Planes were not painted in white in winter 1944/45.  There were no white Yak-3s or La-7s or Il-2s with arrow...

White tail was posible as tactical unit marking, but this should be confirmed.
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barneybolac
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« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2012, 12:52:02 PM »

A front view of one of Yefimov's plane that I have is it the same aircraft though?





I do have a very short video clip of this unit & possibly Black 2? At the 2 min 15 second mark you can see several aircraft with white tails & a stripe on the rear of the plane as well as the darker tipped tail as in one of the profiles I listed before taking off.

At the 3 min 24 second mark what may be black 2 is taking off & it has the solid white tail with a band just in front of the white area. If not black 2 it is painted the same as it. It is very brief the view of this plane only a few seconds.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ye3WMFPUuqo&feature=player_embedded#!



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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #4 on: April 13, 2012, 01:39:22 PM »

Hi Konstantin,
I don't think that such a disuniform finish could be any sort of regimental mark. It doesn't seem the brown of the camouflage either.
The black bort numbers were seen nearly exclusively on winter finished planes, I have many photos of Il-2s of a type built in mid/late 1943 that are painted in winter finish, so this was still in use in early 1944.
So I think that an out-of-date winter finish is a likely explanation.
Else, they could have painted marks with temporary paint and this has gone with the first rain, the effect being similar. Looks strange, anyway.
Here are some screenshoots of a somewhat similar plane numbered 1. In this case, the white tail is certainly an unit mark. One could try to undertand if those planes were of the same unit.
On this plane, the gun fairings are of very late, flushed type.

Note a strange shape on the rudder that could be some individual mark.
Regards
Massimo
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barneybolac
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« Reply #5 on: April 13, 2012, 02:02:29 PM »

Hi Konstantin,
I don't think that such a disuniform finish could be any sort of regimental mark. It doesn't seem the brown of the camouflage either.
The black bort numbers were seen nearly exclusively on winter finished planes, I have many photos of Il-2s of a type built in mid/late 1943 that are painted in winter finish, so this was still in use in early 1944.
So I think that an out-of-date winter finish is a likely explanation.
Else, they could have painted marks with temporary paint and this has gone with the first rain, the effect being similar. Looks strange, anyway.
Here are some screenshoots of a somewhat similar plane numbered 1. In this case, the white tail is certainly an unit mark. One could try to undertand if those planes were of the same unit.
On this plane, the gun fairings are of very late, flushed type.

Note a strange shape on the rudder that could be some individual mark.
Regards
Massimo

That is the plane in the video that I thought was black 2. The still shots are much clearer than the video.

Here are some screen shots I took of the other part of the video with the tipped tails.



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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2012, 02:07:39 PM »

Hi Rodney,
I've seen the movie. The images of black 1 are from it.
The planes at 2'15'' have a short mast, so they have to be straight-winged built in 1943.
The photo of Yefimov's plane that you have posted seems to be the reason of the painting of the spinner of the planes shown in profiles. It doesn't seem the same to me, there is nothing justifying the light nose visible on the photo of n.2. Besides it looks a straight-winged plane, while I've the impression that n.2 was arrow-winged. Looking at the season suggested by the dresses and ground, I would say that the photos aren't contemporary.
Regards
Massimo
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barneybolac
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« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2012, 02:14:31 PM »

Excellent thank you.
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2012, 02:47:47 PM »

Hi Rodney,
I've made a drawing of those white twoseaters for the book of Jason. The video offers a lot of decent screenshots of them.

Regards
Massimo
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KL
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« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2012, 06:24:31 PM »


According to Vahlamov this was ?Il-2 with arrow wings? in autumn 1944 and winter 1944/45.  Camouflage was standard 3-colour compliant with 1943 scheme.  Blue spinner tip and blue rear fuselage lines were 198 regiment markings.  White tail tip was 233 shad (Shturm air division; 198 shap was part of 233 shad) marking.  These markings appeared in 1942.  Meaning and timing of the lighter tail colour, also typical for 233 shad planes, has not been explained.  


198 shap Il-2s



earlier 233 shad planes


« Last Edit: April 13, 2012, 06:31:32 PM by KL » Logged
KL
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« Reply #10 on: April 13, 2012, 06:42:38 PM »

Hi Konstantin,
I don't think that such a disuniform finish could be any sort of regimental mark. It doesn't seem the brown of the camouflage either.
The black bort numbers were seen nearly exclusively on winter finished planes, I have many photos of Il-2s of a type built in mid/late 1943 that are painted in winter finish, so this was still in use in early 1944.
So I think that an out-of-date winter finish is a likely explanation.

Misdated photo wouldn't be something new...  But, in this case I think the date is reliable (pilot participated in article preparation, precise time and location, reliable author...)

It is a fact that white camouflage was not in use in winter 1944/45...
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barneybolac
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« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2012, 07:31:57 PM »

Last two photos are not showing on my end Konstantin only see red X. Nice profile as well Massimo
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KL
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« Reply #12 on: April 13, 2012, 09:40:06 PM »

Last two photos are not showing on my end Konstantin only see red X. Nice profile as well Massimo

Sorry, no idea, photos are from http://crimso.msk.ru/Site/Crafts/Craft19941-5.htm

So far 3 things are clear:
1.  Yefimov's Il-2 from your first post is not in winter camouflage
2.  All Yefimov's planes had white tail tip (blue tip is fiction)
3.  Il-2s with black tail tip are totally unrelated - different time and different unit

following photo doesn't have anything in common with 198 shap
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #13 on: April 13, 2012, 10:01:47 PM »

Hi Konstantin,
so it could be that the white tails were painted with some temporary paint, except for the tip that was permanent. There is still something strange in the photo of plane n.2. The light nose could also be a cover, but it's difficult to explain the light prop blades. Such a wearing is fully unusual in planes of 1944/45.
In one photo that you have posted, the plane on the background seems to have some individual mark on the tail.
About the winter plane: I like this profile, but I have the doubt that the black caps could be the winter version of the white caps of the same 198th ShAP in winter 1943/44. If so, the band on the fuselage could be blue. I wonder who could know this.
Regards
Massimo
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KL
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« Reply #14 on: April 14, 2012, 12:32:48 AM »

so it could be that the white tails were painted with some temporary paint, except for the tip that was permanent.

Nothing is known about those white tails: what was their purpose, what paint was used.  It's even uncertain the tail was white! Vahlamov used term "light colour"

About the winter plane: I like this profile, but I have the doubt that the black caps could be the winter version of the white caps of the same 198th ShAP in winter 1943/44. If so, the band on the fuselage could be blue.

Your "negative theory"  Roll Eyes(white tail tip for summer, black for winter) is unlikely... Undecided   Yefimov's plane shows that white tailtip did not change colour when rest of the tail was re-painted.   
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