Il-2 red 1

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi,
other photos of a plane resembling the 'mottled'  ones:



Looking at the photos of this plane, red (?) 1, we see that:

what is visible of the underlying black/green camouflage and with white outlined stars is clearly related with the style of Zavod 18, so it's sure that the outer panels of wings should be metallic; in the following drawing, the camo of the wings was guessed on the base of other planes of the same factory, even if this pattern was scarcely standardized;

the rear back of fuselage and a small amount of the fuselage side are painted with light (brown?) paint, possibly AMT-1; stiffeners appear to have been installed over this modified camouflage without any attempt to match its colors;

there is something of difficult interpretation on the right wing root, that could resemble the repainting seen on plane n.8 and suggests  that the camo could have been more complex of as it is drawn here. It could also simply be the shadow of a pole visible on the other photo.

The drawing was already done for the book of Jason some time ago, I hope he doesn't mind if I show it here. I've taken in consideration the third image only now, and it suggests that the extension of the light color could have been wider.




 

Regards
Massimo

[KL]

Hi Massimo,

four metal strips were installed to strengthen the wooden rear fuselage in early 1942.  this was a field modification, done at the airfields.
Yuour "mottled" scheme could be related to this modification: light coloured pathes may have been applied to cover repairs/demages etc.
For patches colour, one should look in those "Polevi remont" instructions (1943 edition is available on the web).  Some of the colours that could be considered:  yellow nitro putty, colour of dopped fabric, fresh AMT-4 or AMT-6 (maybe fresh paint looks lighter on b/w photos than aged paint?).

I still don't think those "mottles" are camouflage:  they didn't improve anything, they were against existing regulations...

HTH,
KL   

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi Konstantin,
the photos show that the patches didn't cover the strips, so I think that the camouflage was painted before.
This plane looks to have only one wide patch, but the other ones are full of blotches. What kind of damage could them have sustained to become full of repairs in such way?
Regards
Massimo

[KL]

the photos show that the patches didn't cover the strips, so I think that the camouflage was painted before.

True, wooden structure was first repaired, repaires were painted with appropriate nitro paints.  Duraluminum strips were riveted at the end...  Strips were left unpainted...

This modification was done on all operational planes that were made before June 1942.  New planes made after June 1942 had more internal stringers.  Your "mottled" Il-2s were photographed in summer/fall 1942.

KL

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi Konstantin,
again, what sort of damage should have it been to repaint 50 points on both sides of the fuselage, or all the back of the fuselage?
Why didn't 'appropriate paints' match the original painting, if they were only repairs? They should be green and black and result nearly unvisible.
As an alternative, they could be shit of some very big bird...
Regards
Massimo

[KL]

again, what sort of damage should have it been to repaint 50 points on both sides of the fuselage, or all the back of the fuselage?

It wasn?t necessarily battle damage ? it could be simple paint chipping or famous ?separation of fabric skinning from wood?.
Any repair makes more sense than unauthorized camouflage with exotic/unknown paint.

Why didn't 'appropriate paints' match the original painting, if they were only repairs? They should be green and black and result nearly unvisible.

Nitro paints were applied in (minimum) 2 layers.  First layer was lighter paint, in this case green.  Maybe PARM ran out ot black?
Anyway, your mottles are most likely green repairs.

As an alternative, they could be shit of some very big bird...

[Massimo Tessitori]

It wasn?t necessarily battle damage ? it could be simple paint chipping or famous ?separation of fabric skinning from wood?.
Any repair makes more sense than unauthorized camouflage with exotic/unknown paint.

I don't think at all. If the fabric layer peels because of defective glue, the only remedy it to peel it all and replace with new fabric and new glue. I don't see how spots could be a repair for peeling. And why doesn't this happen on a wider number of planes, only on three  or four ones that have a lot of other similarities?
Besides, peeling was reported on La-5s of z.21 and 99, Yak-7s of Z.153 and Yak-1s built in z.292, no mention to factories of Il-2s (according to Hornat, that has surely reported it from Orlov).

Any repair makes more sense than unauthorized camouflage with exotic/unknown paint.

This is merely prejudicial. There are cases where the attempt to improve a camo with overpaintings is simply obvious.
Again, big birds are always an explanation, or German soldiers repainting 'meine doodle' as suggested by a great researcher.
Regards
Massimo

[learstang]

According to Orlov, AMT-1 was developed in 1941, so it could have been used in 1941 and 1942, even though it wasn't mentioned in any official paint schemes.  In that case, this wouldn't be an unknown paint, although its use in 1941 or 1942 might be considered "exotic".  Considering the situation in the early part of the war, I think the Il-2 pilots and units might have done a little experimentation with the camouflage, as they had bigger things to worry about than incurring the wrath of the NKAP by using an unauthorised paint scheme or colour.  At any rate, we have photographs of these aeroplanes, and clearly something unusual was going on with the paint scheme whether we want to call it mottling or not.

Regards,

Jason

[KL]

According to Orlov, AMT-1 was developed in 1941, so it could have been used in 1941 and 1942, even though it wasn't mentioned in any official paint schemes.  In that case, this wouldn't be an unknown paint, although its use in 1941 or 1942 might be considered "exotic".

AMT-1 hasn't been produced before summer 1943 - for a fronline PARM it was an unknown paint/colour in 1942.  Perchlorvinil paints were developed in mid-war years, but their production and use started a decade later, in 1950-es!  Something that wasn't mass produced in factories wasn't available to frontline units.  Think of all those fine prototype planes (I-185, Su-6, etc) that were not available to frontline units - same with AMT-1 in first 2 years of GPW!!!

Again, big birds are always an explanation...

No, it wasn't the Big Bird

Cheers,
KL