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Tapani's profiles of Il-4
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Author Topic: Tapani's profiles of Il-4  (Read 35284 times)
KL
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« Reply #45 on: December 24, 2012, 05:09:54 PM »

They look definetly NMF and not grey.

All metal planes were painted - to prevent duralluminium corosion.  No NMF planes in VVS!!!

I don't think at all. Your information is probably relative to SB, but photos of SB show clearly the difference between grey planes and silver planes, so there is not any reason to think that grey and silver are undistinguishable on DB-3s.  
In any case, the profile represents the plane how it appears on the photo.

As I said, silver enamel did not exist in 1938.  photos that clearly show difference between silver and light gray are rare!!!  It's usually inconclusive...

Number 11 looks silver on some frames on this collage, and perhaps grey on some others.
But it's definetly alumine painted, no matter any dates. Just like all Finnish captured and
shot down Db:s during a winter war.

Sb:s are different case.

There is a piece of DB-3 fabric preserved in Winter War Museum in Helsinki - it was clearly a gray DB-3 repainted in silver.  Red squadron number was also repainted in silver.  This was done in winter 1939 (winter camouflage?); your photo is supposedly from 1938.

« Last Edit: December 24, 2012, 08:54:42 PM by KL » Logged
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #46 on: December 24, 2012, 11:34:57 PM »

Hi Konstantin,

this is something about SB  from the book of Maslov that you could recognize:
Quote
February 1936 ? report on tests of unpainted prototypes
October 1936 ? 30 unpainted planes sent to Spain
Beginning of 1937 ? Directive to paint all metal planes
1937 ? first series planes painted in light gray AE-9
September 1937 ? report that ?paint increases weight, etc?
End of 1938 ? report that ?in the past year silver AE-8 replaced gray AE-9?
November 1939 ? tests of SB 2M-103 No 13/221 (painted in 2 coats of gray AE-9 and polished)
May 1940 ? Directive to camouflage planes in green-blue scheme
July 1940 ?first series planes painted in green-blue scheme at Zavod 22
August 1940 ?first series planes painted in green-blue scheme at Zavod 125

So, silver enamel did exist in 1938.

It would be interesting to know more about the piece of tissue in the Winter War Museum. Where is written that it was grey repainted silver?

About the photo, I am confident that most of them allow to distinguish well between grey and silver, and the profile reflects the photo of the plane.

Regards
Massimo
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KL
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« Reply #47 on: December 25, 2012, 08:40:58 AM »

Yes, I recognize it - I posted it.
It was posted at scalemodels.ru forum too; there was a discussion, more evidence and the conclusion was that silver had been introduced at the end of 1938.

In spite of all my posts, I can see that I am wasting my time on this forum.  "Photographic evidence" and "deciphering colours from b/w photos" still rule this forum.

Regards,
KL
« Last Edit: December 25, 2012, 08:43:28 AM by KL » Logged
Saivila
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« Reply #48 on: December 26, 2012, 02:23:59 PM »

Actually in this case the number 5 was Red on black surround. Still some traces of the original colour exist. One of those six Db:s he (Jorma Sarvanto) shot down in Jan. 40.
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Saivila
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« Reply #49 on: December 26, 2012, 06:28:49 PM »

Perhaps it wasn't "'red 5." So please don't get stuck for it, it Could be Yellow or blue or orange or pink 5.
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JP
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WWW
« Reply #50 on: December 26, 2012, 09:08:04 PM »


In spite of all my posts, I can see that I am wasting my time on this forum.  


You don't need to win an argument in convincing fashion to have your view heard.  It's always better to have heated arguments, as that is a sign of intellectual rigor.  I am a friend to Massimo, but appreciate your inputs as well, even if you two rarely play well together.  Angry  Be that as it may, people can read differing points of view here and come to their own conclusions.  You needn't always agree.

Your command of the information is impressive, inputs always informative and thought-provoking and I sincerely hope you will stay.
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Aaronw
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« Reply #51 on: December 27, 2012, 12:24:55 AM »


In spite of all my posts, I can see that I am wasting my time on this forum.  


You don't need to win an argument in convincing fashion to have your view heard.  It's always better to have heated arguments, as that is a sign of intellectual rigor.  I am a friend to Massimo, but appreciate your inputs as well, even if you two rarely play well together.  Angry  Be that as it may, people can read differing points of view here and come to their own conclusions.  You needn't always agree.

Your command of the information is impressive, inputs always informative and thought-provoking and I sincerely hope you will stay.


I agree. I know very little about this subject and clearly there is a lot of conflicting information out there so I appreciate being able to look at what is offered and decide for myself how I want to go. I am not a super detailed modeler, I really don't care if my AMT 11 is an exact match on the Yak-3 I'm building as it was on the real plane, but I would like it to be somewhat close. I'd hate to paint it in two shades of green only to find out it is really two shades of grey.

When there is agreement, I can feel confident following that line of thinking. When there is disagreement I have to sort through the info and decide which appears to be better supported, but at least I am forewarned it is an area of controversy.

I enjoy Massimo's profiles, and am glad he takes the time to post them. I also appreciate KL's (sorry don't know your real name) input. While there is occasionally disagreement I can still easily use both sources of information in my model making. I also build WW1 aircraft, and if you want to see some heated discussions, just ask about the color of Manfred von Richthofen's last triplane on a WW1 themed forum. So this is not completely new to me.


For me this is simply a hobby and something of an artform, so I fully intend to build a MiG-3 in the white with red wingtips scheme, knowing full well it is inaccurate but it looks cool. I like knowing that going in though, as a choice. I would be very disappointed to build it that way only to find out that profile is most likely a case of bad B&W color interpretation.


« Last Edit: December 27, 2012, 12:27:31 AM by Aaronw » Logged
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #52 on: December 27, 2012, 07:54:49 AM »

Hi Aaronw,
Quote
I enjoy Massimo's profiles, and am glad he takes the time to post them.
Thank you, In the case of the DB-3 and Il-4, the profiles are made by Tapani, that is Saivila.

Regards
Massimo
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B_Realistic
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Posts: 373


« Reply #53 on: December 27, 2012, 09:35:22 AM »

Yes, I recognize it - I posted it.
It was posted at scalemodels.ru forum too; there was a discussion, more evidence and the conclusion was that silver had been introduced at the end of 1938.

In spite of all my posts, I can see that I am wasting my time on this forum.  "Photographic evidence" and "deciphering colours from b/w photos" still rule this forum.

Regards,
KL


Konstantin,

All the effort you make to discuss the different topics are well appreciated!!!
I hope that you don't leave this forum and still be very critic about the topics that are published.
For me personaly I'm a VVS fan but concerning correctness I leave this to the professionals.
So I think that the input from you is very welcome.
Even if other modelers also discussing if the data is correct.

Michel
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B_Realistic
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Posts: 373


« Reply #54 on: December 27, 2012, 09:37:50 AM »

Yes, I recognize it - I posted it.
It was posted at scalemodels.ru forum too; there was a discussion, more evidence and the conclusion was that silver had been introduced at the end of 1938.

In spite of all my posts, I can see that I am wasting my time on this forum.  "Photographic evidence" and "deciphering colours from b/w photos" still rule this forum.

Regards,
KL


Konstantin,

All the effort you make to discuss the different topics are well appreciated.
I hope that you don't leave this forum and still be very critic about the topics that are published.
For me personaly I'm a VVS fan but concerning correctness I leave this to the professionals.
So I think that the input from you is very welcome.
But like JP said other modelers also have opinions if the data is correct.

Michel
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KL
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« Reply #55 on: December 27, 2012, 08:27:56 PM »

Your command of the information is impressive, inputs always informative and thought-provoking and I sincerely hope you will stay.

Thanks for the nice words!
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Saivila
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Posts: 49


« Reply #56 on: December 29, 2012, 01:05:22 PM »

This picture.Lt. Jorma Sarvanto holding a piece from one of the six DB-3 bombers (no 5) he shot down on the 6th of January 1940.

About colouring of these DB-3s in this day . Here is a part based on Sarvantos logbook.


"The second patrol took off after noticing that Lieutenant Sarvanto had to go alone, but Sarvanto had a good head start. Now the clouds had disappeared from the sky at Utti, and Sarvanto discovered the handsome formation of DB bomber bellies lit by dim sun shining through the haze. He counted seven silver coloured DB-3 bombers. "
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KL
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Posts: 1678


« Reply #57 on: December 30, 2012, 10:09:53 AM »



DB-3 No 5 shot down by Sarvanto was silver in Jan 1940.  No doubts about that.
The piece of fabric, now displayed in Helsinki, shows that this plane was repainted in silverIt was originally light gray - probably made in 1938


Perhaps it wasn't "'red 5." So please don't get stuck for it, it Could be Yellow or blue or orange or pink 5.

Sorry, I didn't get this...  It is "red 5" - everybody can see it in the Winter War Museum. 
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Saivila
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« Reply #58 on: December 30, 2012, 04:32:30 PM »

Please get some color photos so we can see.  




« Last Edit: December 30, 2012, 05:22:33 PM by Massimo Tessitori » Logged
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #59 on: January 04, 2013, 06:18:36 PM »

Hi,
I've updated the drawings of TsKB-54 by Tapani. It's an uparmed DB-3 for escorting the formations of bombers.
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/db3-il4/tapanidb3/TsKB54.htm

Regards
Massimo
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