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Author Topic: Erik Pilawskii Strikes Again!  (Read 9997 times)
dancho
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« Reply #45 on: April 03, 2016, 02:10:26 AM »


I did some research, I have very good understanding of camouflage development in Soviet Union between 1920 and 1945 and I also have some writing aspirations.  Smiley

The book (or books!) I am planning will be quite different from the book Pilawskii made or from books about Luftwaffe/RAF/USAF WWII colours.  I hope to explain camouflage principles, its origins, development, and role camouflage had in Red Army operations.  There is a lot o information available, I just have to put it together...  Wink

Just wondering, is there any interest for such a book??

Regards,
KL

A good book on the history of camouflage design and development would be a true breakthrough. Even with all the books that have been printed on "colors" I believe that only a few are scholarly in nature and none are true histories. I would be sorely tempted to buy such a book myself, if only to show support for the brave author!
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JP
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« Reply #46 on: April 03, 2016, 02:27:11 AM »

I'm in.  If you want, I could write a forward for it certifying that none of the participants suffers from a personality disorder, and will constructively engage in debate if questioned.  Tongue
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dancho
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« Reply #47 on: April 03, 2016, 05:57:19 AM »

I wouldn't care if the author were mentally ill, as long as the sources for the information are adequately cited, as would be the case in any respectable work of historical research. That way, if the author insists that his source regarding the use of a particular type of paint is a Superman comic, then I'll be able to look at the same Superman comic myself and judge whether the author has made a reasonable deduction. That is the whole purpose of citations--to allow the reader to make up his or her own mind based on the same set of evidence. Unfortunately, the usual thing is for authors of "modelling" books to skip this step. I have a whole shelf of books without a single citation. Lots of nice pictures, drawn by very imaginative illustrators. It's only lately that I'm beginning to see how bogus they really are.
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KL
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« Reply #48 on: April 09, 2016, 03:35:01 AM »

How bad is the text about I-16 materials and paintinghttp://redbanner.co.uk/History/surface/I16_surface.html???
Some of the mistakes, errors and fantasies I could pick up
:

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The fuselage and wing root areas were made up of laminated spruce strips, these wrapped around the shape of the unit over wooden formers.

It wasn't spruce, it was birch.

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The wood strips were both secured and impregnated with phenol-formaldehyde resin, this giving the normally light wood an orange-brown appearance.

Phenol-formaldehyde resin hasn't been used in I-16 production,  it was used couple of years later on LaGG-3!

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A strip of hard wood (usually ash) was used to blend in the adjoining wing and fuselage sections.

This strip can be seen only on modern I-16 replicas.  It didn't exist on original I-16.
 
Quote
The fuselage and wing forward sections were then covered in fabric (common linen).

wing forward section was made of metal, metal suraces were not covered in fabric.
Fabric was cotton, not "common linen"!!!
 
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This fabric was impregnated with another type of phenol-formaldehyde resin, being similar in chemistry to that used on the wood strip, but clear in colour [this is may well be the lacquer designated ?17-A Clear? as identified by the NKAP?s documents].

It wasn't phenol-formaldehyde resin - it was clear nitro-cellulose dope!
NKAP didn't exist in 1938/39 when I-16 Type 10 was in production.

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In the first case, the desired military or camouflage finish was applied directly over the fabric/puttied airframe. Generally speaking, A, AE, AEh and AII lacquers all adhered well over such surfaces, and tended to chip away significantly only over dural sheet areas which had neither putty nor primer applied to them. AMT lacquer was indifferent to the types of surfaces to which it was applied.

What is the difference between AE and AEh? In reality there was only one paint type called АЭ.
A, АЭ were not used over fabric.
AMT paints didn't exist in 1938/39.

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The second option was to first finish the entire airframe with a coat of ALG aviation primer.

ALG-1 over wooden surfaces?  Nonsense...

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It was not unknown at some factories, and in certain cases, that part of the airframe would be comprehensively primed, and other areas not.

It did not depend on a factory - those where technologies that all factories had to follow...

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Note that the canopy framing is mostly unpainted. This appearance was quite typical, the paint having fallen away almost completely. Indeed, it was sometimes the case that no attempt was made to paint this framing in the first place.

canopy framing on all open cockpit I-16 was unpainted...


Quote
Another derelict I-16, in this case perhaps a Type 24, shot on AGFA colour slide film. Despite the various colour oddities of this film type, it is manifestly clear that this aircraft was comprehensively primed with ALG-1 at the factory before finishing.

Again nonsense about ALG-1 over wooden surfaces!

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One of the modern I-16 Type 24 replica Warbirds built by Aviarestoration in Novosibirsk ca. 1992. The I-16?s unique construction method is demonstrated here before the aircraft was painted.

modern replica, modern materials... not necessarily authentic...

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Yak-1b production at Factory 292, Saratov, ca. 1943. The uniform over-all appearance of the aircraft in view, except for the rudder fabric surfaces, strongly suggests that these examples have been thoroughly primed with ALG-1.

3rd time nonsense about ALG-1 over wooden surfaces!  Now on Yak-1 in 1943...


IMHO, this text is really bad.  Maybe for a modeller not interested in technical details these errors aren't important?
Regards,
KL
« Last Edit: April 09, 2016, 03:42:51 AM by KL » Logged
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #49 on: April 09, 2016, 06:52:31 AM »

Hi,
really bad.
Quote
Maybe for a modeller not interested in technical details these errors aren't important?
If a text is wrong, it's good to find a corrected version, for one who cares. On a modellistic point of view, this becomes important only if one makes a damaged plane, because the milk color that he attributes to primers should be yellowish and can be seen through scratches, as visible on pieces as those of MiG-3 and LaGG-3 in Vesivehmaa (or how it is named) depot.
Regards
Massimo
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KL
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« Reply #50 on: April 10, 2016, 02:42:34 AM »

Hi,
it should be stressed that drawings Pilawskii made for this page are all wrong - for example wood on his first drawing should be very light, "blond"; not red-brown (as I said phenol-formaldehyde resin impregnated plywood was used later on LaGG fighters.



Untreated birch veneer looks like this:



Ikea's bookshelf in birch veneer looks like this:



it isn't red-brown...

Regards,
KL


 
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #51 on: April 10, 2016, 07:32:21 AM »

Hi,
I see. Pity that it's impossible to convince him to correct all these errors.
Regards
Massimo
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KL
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« Reply #52 on: April 19, 2016, 01:59:57 AM »

Hi,
errors listed in my previous post are bad, but they could be "honest mistakes" - author may have mixed up LaGG-3 and I-16, may have mixed up primer types or may have mistranslated type of wood etc...

Following two paragraphs are by far the worst part of his effort:

Quote

With the airframe thusly covered, various amounts of filler putty were then applied. Special attention was directed at any area where a large joint may occur, or other un-serviceable gaps, and the putty could be applied freely over any surface (e.g. shown here to fill dents in the cowling face) which was not movable. The airframe was then sanded smooth, attempting to obtain the best aerodynamic surface possible.

In some cases, often relating to specific factories, the amount of filler putty used could be quite substantial. This was often the case in early manufacture examples, as the non-skilled work force found their feet and gained experience in mass production techniques. However simplistic, the use of filler putty in this way was hugely effective. Indeed, this method was something of an ideal Soviet solution, costing virtually nothing (in terms of expense) and yet yielding superior results via the application of labour.


Pilawskii is saying that the large amounts of filler putty were applied over the entire airframe to cover up joints, gaps, dents and similar imperfections.  Filler putty was then sanded to achieve aerodynamic shape/surface.  All this because soviet planes were made by the "non-skilled workforce"!!!

It is true that the wooden parts of the airframe were covered with fabric and then puttied and sanded before the painting.  But the reasons for this were different and this was done only over wood, not over fabric surfaces or metal as Pilawskii suggests.

There is nothing about the procedure described by Pilawskii in manuals and similar period literature. There is no evidence of excessive filler on airframes preserved in museums, there is no evidence of filler on wrecks!

In short, two paragraphs quoted above are pure fiction made up by Pilawskii!  He couldn't read about this procedure anywhere,  he couldn't see evidences of this procedure anywhere;  these are his fantasies...

Pilawskii is actually describing something that can be seen in every auto body shop: 






Soviet planes were crude when compared with western planes.  It's hard or impossible to compare Soviet work force with American or German workforce.  What Pilawskii does is making up a case based on a single cold-war era stereotype (i.e. Soviet planes were crude because they were made by "non-skilled work force" 

... Pity that it's impossible to convince him to correct all these errors.

To accept corrections would mean to admit that he made up large parts of his opus...

Regards,
KL
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Javier Planells
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« Reply #53 on: May 24, 2016, 12:30:04 AM »

I remember reading somewhere else a review about the T-34 medium tank and the author stated something close to this: "unlike what is commonly accepted in the western countries, soviet engineering was capable of great finesse and care for detail on every part that required it so. I.e. optics, machined parts of turrets and hull, etc."

EP remind's me of some "modeling historians" in my country, always lecturing on colours but never producing a single piece of historical evidence.

All the best.
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dancho
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« Reply #54 on: October 01, 2016, 11:29:39 PM »

EP remind's me of some "modeling historians" in my country, always lecturing on colours but never producing a single piece of historical evidence.

It's a common problem, apparently. Pick up a copy of the "respected" books published by Osprey. Where are the citations? Where is the bibliography? Where are the sources? Where is anything to indicate that the author didn't just make it all up?
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #55 on: March 14, 2017, 02:59:29 PM »

Hi,
He made a new page on UT-1.
http://www.redbanner.co.uk/History/trainers/trainers_1.html
Unfortunately, He identifies a prototype of an armed version, not gone into production, with a 'standard' plane with 1940 green/blue  livery, and Soviet civilians with German soldiers. I don't know where He thinks to see red stars, too.
Some feedbacks should be very useful for Him.
Regards
Massimo
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TISO
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« Reply #56 on: March 18, 2017, 11:24:24 AM »

Quote
A UT-1B likely seen in southern climes, possibly during 1942. Captions for the image disagree wildly, some suggesting evaluation by the VMF ChF, and others that the aircraft was captured and seen in Romanian hands. Attempts to identify the aircraft in background continue, and results in that direction might reveals clues to the nature of this image.
This is well known and photographed s/n 47025 that was used as test aircraft (etalon) in VMAU imeni Stalina on airfield Mozdok in spring 1942. Plane later served as "white 10" in 46.AP VVS ChF.
Who says that plane was captured by Romanians (first time i hear of this)?

And the plane in background are acctually 2 I-16's with non standard camo. So no need to continue superhuman attempts to identify the aircraft in the background. After all 1 minutes of searching i present to you from Airwar.ru site:



« Last Edit: March 18, 2017, 11:41:51 AM by TISO » Logged
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #57 on: March 19, 2017, 11:05:34 AM »

Hi Tiso,
there is a page on a similar plane here:
http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/ut-1and2/tapani/ut-1/ut1bwhite4.htm.
I've also seen, in recent days, a photo of the plane that is described as a 'standard green-blue one' by Him.  I think that it is preserved in the Yakovlev museum, perhaps with the original livery. I think to remember that it was all red.
Here we see it exposed, I think on Domodedovo air show in 1967 https://aviaforum.ru/threads/arxivnye-foto.11112/page-38
Here one can fond dozens of photos of UT-1 captured by Germans in 1941, and can see how was the standard livery of 1941. Silver, red and grey; the only green was on the grass. https://aviaforum.ru/threads/arxivnye-foto.11112/page-39
Regards
Massimo
« Last Edit: March 19, 2017, 11:12:23 AM by Massimo Tessitori » Logged
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