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Author Topic: Notes about Pe-8 painting and something.  (Read 6932 times)
Psy06
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« on: June 10, 2012, 08:52:46 AM »

I think I can add for this topic http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/colors.html
little more info if you want Smiley

Quote
TB-7 n.42015 at state tests in spring 1941. Being an all-metal plane, it was painted with A-19f green and A-18f light blue, with six red stars outlined in black.
This is error, at Pe-8, stars was never painted at black outline. Only 3 types of insignia was present for it:

1.  Before 1943 - just red star:

1940 - #4225


1941 - #42015


1942 - #42066


Summer 1943 - #42058


2. 43-45 - Added white stripe painted inside or outside star' borders:

1943  - white border painted inside - #42210


1944 - white border painted outside - #42088


January 1945 - white border inside again - #42057


2. After 44 - New star introduced, smaller size with white border and red thin border outside:

April 1945 - #42712


About 1945 paint sheme for Pe-8, you total wrong. Pe-8 manufactured from 1944 was painted plain A-33 with bottom A-28. In the squadrons, the aircrafts apparently did not repainted until the end of the war.

1944 - #42712 total gray


~50? - before 1943' style airplane total gray


Your analisis have errors about afterwar paintings.
In general, after 44 practically ceased factory painting of aircrafts in camouflaged with green in its composition. Its happened because green color was exluded from military use, and production green paint was lowered if not ceased at all. It is very easy to follow at the prototypes, they were stained with strictly military standards as well as how they were created with a fairly frequent periodicity, about it can be quite accurate to say. Starting in '44, from the colors of experimental machines the green color disappeared completely. And just later it began to disappear at serial production, which is understandable because the plants are a bit too slowly injected Innovations.
All afterwar builded planes with noncamo painting, actually was gray A33 with almost all cases, camo - gray-gray A33+A32. Over variants with green or brown colors was actually old wartime produced machines at training squadrons. Certainly, from it have been some exceptions, but overall it was a picture.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2012, 09:44:55 AM by Psy06 » Logged
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2012, 07:41:17 AM »

Hi Psy,
thank you for your notes on the Pe-8, they are very interesting, I'll use them in the next future collecting all the documents on the painting of the Pe-8 in one page. I followed the interesting thread on Scalemodels.ru.

Some questions:

in this photo of 42015, a black outline seems present around the star on the fuselage. Is there any higher resolution scan available to check?



42210 is a late M-82 engined plane with 3 shades camo, isn't it? I am surprised to see its white outline made so roughly. By the way, could you write what is the slogan on the fuselage, please?

42712 has AM-35 engines,  was it built before 1943 and completely repainted later?

The wrecked plane has a dark rounded part on one side of the fuselage, could it be a trace of two shades scheme?

Was the wing shape of Pe-8 changed in any way during its production cycle?


In general, I would be very interested to know what are your conclusions on the use of grey in 1944/45 on bombers as Il-4, Pe-2, Il-2 and the Tu-2 in particular.

Regards
Massimo


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Psy06
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« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2012, 11:17:41 AM »

Quote
Is there any higher resolution scan available to check?


Quote
42210 is a late M-82 engined plane with 3 shades camo, isn't it? I am surprised to see its white outline made so roughly. By the way, could you write what is the slogan on the fuselage, please?

"Бугульминский Колхозник"

Quote
42712 has AM-35 engines,  was it built before 1943 and completely repainted later?
It was diesel powered with ACH-30B, built at end of 1944.

Quote
The wrecked plane has a dark rounded part on one side of the fuselage, could it be a trace of two shades scheme?
No, it cant be, because a spots of darker colors of camo at Pe-8 was mach more often. Its possibly some kind of dirt, or oil.

Quote
Was the wing shape of Pe-8 changed in any way during its production cycle?
No, but both prototypes have different wings and tails, differ from each over and serial production.

Quote
In general, I would be very interested to know what are your conclusions on the use of grey in 1944/45 on bombers as Il-4, Pe-2, Il-2 and the Tu-2 in particular.

Can't say about Il2, Pe-2 after the war was many times repainted, and very strange, almost out of some kind of system.
Tu-2 mostly gray, and gray-gray, but known some planes which has a green brown camo, but these planes was at training squad at fiftieth.
Il-4 was most mysterious, for now info very scarce and uncomplete. About Il4 from a Poklonnaya Hill, unfortunately after plane extraction no one bothered to record information about the original painting.
And recover for now impossibile, because at restoration, all original painting was destroyed with sandblaster  Sad
« Last Edit: June 11, 2012, 11:21:33 AM by Psy06 » Logged
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2012, 02:05:52 PM »

Hi Psy,

thank you for the images that show the star in convincing way.
I'll try to collect some images and informations in a page on the Pe-8 on next days.

Please, have a look at
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/tu-2/tu-2camo/tu-2camo.htm
There is a factory sketch, but the most of planes that seem to follow it on the rear fuselage and tail seem to have the wings painted with an uniform light color. Why?
Another thing: often the rudders look camouflaged on planes that seem to have an uniform finish. Why?
Again: there is a high number of postwar planes that show a strongly contrasted camouflage of unknown pattern, you can see them on the lower photos on that page. Do you really think that this was a two shades camo of green and brown?  Was it made in factory?
At the end, were there really solid green Tu-2s in Soviet service after the war? No doubts for Chinese green Tu-2s, but Soviet ones look difficult to be detected in photographic records I have.

Regards
Massimo
« Last Edit: June 11, 2012, 05:15:23 PM by Massimo Tessitori » Logged
KL
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« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2012, 07:42:37 PM »

Hi Dmitri/Massimo,

blown-up detail of 42015 actually shows black outline - why don't you guys play with this image in Photoshop and make it more distinctive?  



If you zoom in, black outline is visible on the following photo too:



again, you may play with it in Photoshop and confirm its presence.

Cheers,
KL
« Last Edit: June 11, 2012, 07:48:17 PM by KL » Logged
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2012, 08:35:17 PM »

Hi Konstantin,
the color photo is interesting indeed, thank you for posting it.

About the outline, I'm not sure: I've increased the contrast, but the results were uncertain all the same. I think to see something, but only in few points. Sometimes an outline could be an artifact of a .jpg compression where the color changes suddenly.
Regards
Massimo
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Psy06
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« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2012, 07:33:34 AM »

Hi Dmitri/Massimo,
blown-up detail of 42015 actually shows black outline - why don't you guys play with this image in Photoshop and make it more distinctive?  


Maybe because it's not there? What do you think of the thickness of the border should be if it is so thick then need try to see with a microscope?  Grin
Ok, if serious, black border should be at least more then sentimeter thick, but you at photo easy see a rivets which was much smaller  Grin



Look how bold the border at SB, at Pe-8, if border was there, must be at least twice as thick. Just because the size of the stars was much more. No notice it is simply not realistic  Grin
In any case, remember, markings were drawn strictly on the pattern, and size of their elements were changed proportionally. For example black stroke on the TB-3 so thick that there will fit the human hand.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2012, 07:55:17 AM by Psy06 » Logged
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2012, 08:22:22 PM »

Hi Psy and Kl,
my doubtis not about the thickness of the outline, but about the contrst between red and black in this photo.
My impression is that it's a plain star, but I'm not sure.
Another thing: Tapani has given the link on a discussion on the wreck illustrated in the color photo.
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=185526 There are two further color photos, showing only wrecks.
Regards
Massimo
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KL
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« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2012, 11:15:06 PM »



I can see outline around the red star again!  Shocked Shocked Shocked   True, it's not pitch black, but it's darker gray than gray representing the red star.  Its thicknes is about the right, here around two pixels wide.  Maybe we are dealing with the case known as: "Truth Is In The Eye Of The Beholder".

Psy, your SB photo was taken from 2m distance, Pe-8 photo was taken from more than 20m.  Pe-8 photo was scanned and a lot of detail was lost.  In SB photo million pixels represent black outline.  In Pe-8 photo only few dozens of pixels represent black outline.  You can't compare them unfortunatelly.  Undecided

In short:  couple of Pe-8 photos posted so far are inconclusive.  They can't be used neither to prove that there was outline, nor that there wasn't.

Any info in documents or in literature?  You can't say it wasn't there only because it is not visible in photos.

We used analogy in Pe-8 case - all planes made between May 1940 and June 1941 had star with black outline. This is confirmed by many German photos.

- series Ar-2 had stars with black outline
- late 1940 SB bombers ("dive bombers" and Irkutsk SBs with MV-3 turrets)
- Yak-2 and Yak-4
- earliest Il-2
- I-16 Type 29 had stars with black outline.  Earlier I-16s made before May 1940 had plain stars!
- prewar Mig-3
- prewar Yak-1

Why not Pe-8?

Cheers,
KL
« Last Edit: June 12, 2012, 11:17:26 PM by KL » Logged
Psy06
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« Reply #9 on: June 13, 2012, 10:06:05 AM »

Quote
Any info in documents or in literature?  You can't say it wasn't there only because it is not visible in photos.
We used analogy in Pe-8 case - all planes made between May 1940 and June 1941 had star with black outline. This is confirmed by many German photos.
- series Ar-2 had stars with black outline
- late 1940 SB bombers ("dive bombers" and Irkutsk SBs with MV-3 turrets)
- Yak-2 and Yak-4
- earliest Il-2
- I-16 Type 29 had stars with black outline.  Earlier I-16s made before May 1940 had plain stars!
- prewar Mig-3
- prewar Yak-1

Why not Pe-8?
I see nothing, really, just plain star.
Many planes don't have black outline, late DB-3, DB-3F, Pe-2, SB, MBR-2, Lagg-3, I-15bis, why not Pe-8?  Grin

If serious, today I ask our region military arheologists' head, how often they are found on planes a stars with a black border, the answer was never! They found dozens of planes of which 2/3 were in the 38-41 years.
  
« Last Edit: June 13, 2012, 10:35:26 AM by Psy06 » Logged
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #10 on: June 13, 2012, 12:19:27 PM »

Hi Psy,
some wrecks with black outline can be seen at http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/1937-40/1937-1940.html. None of them is a Pe-8, although.
Regards
Massimo
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Psy06
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« Reply #11 on: June 13, 2012, 02:17:25 PM »

Hi Psy,
some wrecks with black outline can be seen at http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/1937-40/1937-1940.html. None of them is a Pe-8, although.
Regards
Massimo
I know,  Grin I tell about a modern searches which could be confirmed with color.

2KL Sergey Kuznecov vrote:
Quote
17.7.41 ГАСО ф.Р-1261 оп.3 д.72 л.55 Протокол согласительного совещания по вопросу размещения опознавательных знаков (звезд) на самолетах, сдаваемых ГУ ВВС КА от 17 июля 1941 г. (отпечатан 18.7.71)

Присутствовали: от НКАП заместитель наркома авиапромышленности Воронин
от ГУ ВВС КА начальник 10-го управления бригинженер Бибиков
Постановили:
1. Кроме звезд, наносимых согласно утвержденной начальником ВВС КА схемы на нижних поверхности крыла и боковых поверхностях вертикального оперения, наносить звезды на боках фюзеляжа.
2. По размеру звезды должны вписываться в круг диаметром 1 м.
3. Все звезды наносить без черной окантовки.
4. К исполнению данного решения приступить немедленно.
Заместитель наркома авиапромышленности Воронин
Начальник 10-го управления ГУ ВВС КА бригинженер Бибиков
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KL
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« Reply #12 on: June 13, 2012, 06:42:01 PM »

Many planes don't have black outline, late DB-3, DB-3F, Pe-2, SB, MBR-2, Lagg-3, I-15bis, why not Pe-8?  Grin

I am talking only about the planes made between May 1940 and June 1941...

All planes made during this period had solid green upper surfaces and light blue undersides.  Stars on those planes always had black outline.  All SBs made during this period were green-blue and their stars had black outline - gray SB on your photo was made before May 1940.  MBR-2 production slowed down and stopped in Oct 1940, only 38 were made in 1940 - just a few may have had black outlined stars.
I-15bis is from another story - last I-15bis was made in mid 1939.

How many Pe-8 were made/comlpeted between May 1940 and June 1941?  Those probably had stars with black outline.

KL
 
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KL
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« Reply #13 on: June 13, 2012, 06:49:13 PM »

2KL Sergey Kuznecov vrote:
Quote
17.7.41 ГАСО ф.Р-1261 оп.3 д.72 л.55 Протокол согласительного совещания по вопросу размещения опознавательных знаков (звезд) на самолетах, сдаваемых ГУ ВВС КА от 17 июля 1941 г. (отпечатан 18.7.71)

Присутствовали: от НКАП заместитель наркома авиапромышленности Воронин
от ГУ ВВС КА начальник 10-го управления бригинженер Бибиков
Постановили:
1. Кроме звезд, наносимых согласно утвержденной начальником ВВС КА схемы на нижних поверхности крыла и боковых поверхностях вертикального оперения, наносить звезды на боках фюзеляжа.
2. По размеру звезды должны вписываться в круг диаметром 1 м.
3. Все звезды наносить без черной окантовки.
4. К исполнению данного решения приступить немедленно.
Заместитель наркома авиапромышленности Воронин
Начальник 10-го управления ГУ ВВС КА бригинженер Бибиков

Doesn't this mean that stars had to have black outlines before this order (July 17 1941)?
« Last Edit: June 13, 2012, 09:33:21 PM by KL » Logged
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