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Author Topic: Airacobra Mk.I, Ivan Gaidaenko  (Read 24715 times)
KL
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« Reply #15 on: October 24, 2012, 07:38:04 PM »

Hi Pascal,
on following photos is probably the best documented 19 giap Aircobra - Fomchenkov's Aircobra No "12"


Regiment commander G. Reifshneider

Kutahov?

with smaller No "12"


HTH,
KL
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AC26
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« Reply #16 on: October 24, 2012, 08:50:09 PM »

If I have to make a decission as a modeller now, I would probably go for:
- grey/green camo,
- RAF roundels visibly overpainted,
- red stars with white outline,
- white "16"
- red tail tip.
Hi!

The spinner looks to be silver for me, like the Hyryl? Airacobra. Maybed the number 16 too?

Cheers,

AaCee
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66misos
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Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.


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« Reply #17 on: October 25, 2012, 08:56:57 AM »

Hi AaCee,

photos of Airacobras from 19 GIAP shows former RAF P-400 with propeller in "standard" RAF colors - spinner of Sky color while black propeller blades with yellow tips and yellow stencils. And with 20mm cannon.

Number "12" at this photo:

seems to be not sprayed over the mask but hand brushed - like white areas on the Galchenko's LaGG-3:

In case of no. "16" I would go for white.

Airacobra at Hyryl? Museum is former US P-39Q-15BE with 37mm cannon and Aeroproducts propeller - grey blades with black stencils and without yellow tips. Spinner seems to be repainted to silver.


Number "26" is silver with more homogenous coverage then "12":


Regards,
     66misos
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KL
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« Reply #18 on: October 25, 2012, 08:01:48 PM »

Hi 66misos/AaCee,

Quote
photos of Airacobras from 19 GIAP shows former RAF P-400 with propeller in "standard" RAF colors - spinner of Sky color while black propeller blades with yellow tips and yellow stencils. And with 20mm cannon.

Correct, spinner should be in original Sky Type S (duck egg colour), propeller was black Curtiss and the cannon was long barrel 20mm Hispano.  Same as here:


Quote
- red tail tip.

IMHO, no red tail tips.  Special tactical markings were very unlikely in 1942.  Those were used primarilly for formation flying, when many different units operated in relatively small area, like eastern Europe in 1944/45 or southern Finland during the Winter War.

Quote
Number "12" at this photo:

seems to be not sprayed over the mask but hand brushed

Number "12" is definitely hand brushed - the same for all other plane numbers in 19 giap...  IMHO, number "12" was probably silver.  On most photos it looks white and only in the photo above (in spec lighting conditions) brush strokes are visible.  It's the same with the number "26" on Hyryl? Museum P-39Q - number is hand painted with silver paint.  The paint itself is very reflective and very, very fine grained - it's actually very hard to get its metallic lustre on photos.  Usually it looks white on photos.  Some paint manufacturers call such paints "Metallic White"...



Finally, propeller on Hyryl? Museum P-39Q is not original.  one original propeller blade is displayed under the plane.
Silver nose and vertical tail were standard for Leningrad military district in 1944.

HTH,
KL
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66misos
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« Reply #19 on: October 26, 2012, 11:35:37 AM »

Hi,
there seems to be several trues, e.g. several P-39 modifications and marking versions in time.

1.) Here is RAF Airacobra with 6 exhaust stack (RAF version):



2.) Airacobra with:
- 12 exhaust stack,
- big white or silver no. "12",
- red star on fuselage with thin white or silver outline,
- victory stars on fuselage:




3.) Airacobra with:
- 12 exhaust stack,
- big white or silver no. "12",
- red star on fuselage with thin white or silver outline but on the different position (see panel line through the fuselage red star),
- different shape of dark camo color under the fuselage red star,
- no victory stars
- area under the left underwing red star seem to be overpainted (see lighter color orond the star then grey camo color):



4. Airacobra with:
- 12 exhaust stack,
- small white or silver no. "12", different font,
- red star on the fuselage with thin black outline,



5.) Two Airacobraa with:
   Front Airacobra:
-6 exhaust stack (US style),
   Back Airacobra:
- big white or silver number on the tail,
- no white outline of the fuselage red star visible, e.g. should be red star with black outline,



6.) Airacobra with:
-6 exhaust stack (US style),
- red star on fuselage with thin white or silver outline,
- area under the fuselage red star seem to be overpainted,



7.) Airacobra with:
- 12 exhaust stack,
- color of no. "16" not solid, similiar to "12",
- outline of the right underwing red star (just right from pilot right arm) is too dark to be white, but lighter than color around and too light to be black; is it silver?
- red star on fuselage at the same position as on big "12" with victory stars (see panel line above star), outline look same as on the right underwing star - dirty white or silver in the wing shadow? See how evident is white/silver outline on the other photos
- tail tip above "16" painted - red or different color?



regards,
     66misos
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Pascal
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« Reply #20 on: October 26, 2012, 03:33:21 PM »

Thank you to all of you!

But, except for Massimo, you don't say nothing about my question: how are the wing guns holes covered? I like Massimo's point of vue...

KL and Misos, do you really means that numbers and stars outlines could be silver? Like the AML decals?

Regards,

Pascal
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learstang
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« Reply #21 on: October 26, 2012, 05:58:15 PM »

Pascal, silver was probably used more than we think.  In fact, where some profiles have yellow, silver is probably more appropriate.  Silver was an approved colour for markings, but yellow wasn't.  In some black and white photographs, silver and yellow can look very similar, and I think people have made the wrong conclusion that the borts and/or star outlines were yellow instead of silver.  Personally, I'm rather sceptical of much usage of yellow early in the war, as it was the Axis identifying colour, and there was the possibility of mistaken identity (you'll notice that the Germans didn't use much red on the Eastern Front).  I think its usage was probably rare (again, I'm talking about early in the war - towards the end of the war, from 1944 on, yellow was used on spinners to indentify which flight a particular aeroplane belonged to [this was done with the Il-2, for example], but by then the Red Air Force was using large formations, the Luftwaffe wasn't much of a threat anymore, and the Red Air Force was more concerned with keeping its formations in order than it was of mistaken identity).

Regards,

Jason
« Last Edit: October 26, 2012, 06:03:19 PM by learstang » Logged

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KL
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« Reply #22 on: October 26, 2012, 07:29:14 PM »

But, except for Massimo, you don't say nothing about my question: how are the wing guns holes covered? I like Massimo's point of vue...

It is also posible that Gaidaenko actually reffers to later P-39Qs with wing guns in containers.  Those containers were usually removed from VVS Airacobras.  Check tread about Pokrishkin's Airacobras at  http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1367.30


KL and Misos, do you really means that numbers and stars outlines could be silver? Like the AML decals?
Yes, silver was commonly used for numbers - one of the numbers of Musee de l'Air Yak-3 is also silver:  number 25 applied in Saratov factory.  one of the Red Stars (orange star)  is also outlined in silver...



KL
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #23 on: October 26, 2012, 07:45:00 PM »

Hi all,
yellow was common for markings before the war, and probably was used for brief time at its beginning, then it was nearly abandoned for years. Probably a yellow number can't make too much confusion with a German plane, but a yellow spinner was really risky for friendly fire.
Regards
Massimo
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learstang
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« Reply #24 on: October 26, 2012, 10:53:10 PM »

Regarding the wing guns, I have a question - how often were the guns in the wings removed, as opposed to the underwing .50's, as in the P-39Q's?  I seem to recall reading, perhaps on this site, perhaps on this very thread, that the wing guns were normally retained, whilst the guns in the underwing pods were often (usually?) removed.  This is of some interest to me as I'm currently trying to finish up two P-39's, one a -P, with the internally mounted wing guns still in place, and one a -Q, with the underwing pods removed.

Regards,

Jason
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Pascal
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« Reply #25 on: October 26, 2012, 11:03:13 PM »

It is also posible that Gaidaenko actually reffers to later P-39Qs with wing guns in containers.

Thanks, Konstantin!

But Gaidaenko reffers to Airacobra I, with the 20 mm cannon, two nose guns and four guns in the wings... that he says he had removed.

Are you sure for the number 25?



Here are the 21 and 18 numbers:



Yes, the grey under paint is not the same...

Jason, Gaidaenko says:

"Cobras were light and armed with a 20mm gun, two large-calibre machine guns and four machine guns of rifle calibre in the wings. I removed the wing machine guns from my Cobra and it was a perfect plane, even in vertical fights."

Thank you for your communications,

Pascal
« Last Edit: October 26, 2012, 11:46:08 PM by Pascal » Logged

learstang
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« Reply #26 on: October 26, 2012, 11:26:33 PM »

Is bort 18 in silver?  It's definitely a different colour than bort 21.

Regards,

Jason
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KL
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« Reply #27 on: October 26, 2012, 11:56:59 PM »

"25" is silver.  As I said before, silver paint is very reflective and in most photos it looks white.  Flash makes things even worse. A real nightmare if you want to show silver on your photos.

Both "21" and "18" are white.  "21" was oversprayed with gray-greenish paint and then over it "18" was sprayed.  Gray-green and white "18" were probably sprayed by the French, on their way back to France, most likely using some western paints.

HTH,
KL
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Pascal
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« Reply #28 on: October 27, 2012, 12:18:09 AM »

Gray-green and white "18" were probably sprayed by the French, on their way back to France, most likely using some western paints.

I think the same thing.

Go for silver! Wink

This is my model, in progress:



Thank you.

Pascal
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learstang
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« Reply #29 on: October 27, 2012, 01:00:38 AM »

Looks good, Pascal!  Which kit is this?  I just saw your answer about the wing guns, at least on this particular aeroplane, thank you!

Regards,

Jason
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