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Author Topic: Airacobra Mk.I, Ivan Gaidaenko  (Read 24683 times)
66misos
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« Reply #45 on: January 29, 2013, 10:52:00 AM »

Hi Pascal,

let me summarize info I collected in the thread about Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39:

There is an interesting article "Early Versions of Airacobra Aircraft in Soviet Aviation" by Valeriy Romanenko at http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/articles/romanenko/p-39/. I picked up info about L-L aircraft delivery/acceptance process:
"?The crates containing aircraft components were opened, inventoried, and checked for damage in the presence of the representative of the Import Directorate. Special attention was given to the "newness" of the aircraft (had this aircraft been subjected to previous use and repair)...a significant portion of the Hurricanes and P-40Cs that had arrived earlier had been flown for some time in the RAF and had exhausted a significant percentage of their use life. Representatives of the military commission of the USSR in Great Britain had noted cases when new aircraft arriving from the USA were taken into the inventory of the Royal Air Force to replace other aircraft already in use. These aircraft underwent repair, were disassembled, packed in crates, and sent to the USSR."
So Hurricanes and P-40Cs were relatively old.

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_P-39_Airacobra:
"...Britain transferred about 200 P-39s to the Soviet Union...Another 200 examples intended for the RAF were taken up by the USAAF after the attack on Pearl Harbor as the P-400...The Airacobras already in the UK, along with the remainder of the first batch being built in the US, were sent to the Soviet Air force..."
So P-39s were relatively new.

V. Roman in his book Airacobras over Kuban writes, that there was a big airplane assembling factory in Abadan (e.g. South path) built by Douglas in line with USAF order. Red stars painted in Abadan were in line with rules, e.g. with the thin (1cm) black outline. But blue circles were repainted rather sloppy, often with British or Russian paints, which did not match original US Olive Drab and Neutral Grey?
My understanding is that if there was shortage of OD then British or Russian paints (which were in enough quantities) were used. I know you are interested in Airacobras delivered via Northern path but situation there should/could be similar.

So regarding P-39s unless photo of the particular plane shows something else I would vote for RAF paints which were seem to be on hands. And as modeller I would distinguish this "new, fresh" repainting from "old" surrounding camo by slightly different color and level of matt/gloss.

Btw, what color is used on the tail tip at this photo?


Happy modeling,
    66misos
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #46 on: January 29, 2013, 07:01:03 PM »

Hi Misos,
you're making a very interesting work of research on these planes. Would you obtain a page for the site to resume it, when you'll think it will be complete?
Regards
Massimo
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KL
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« Reply #47 on: January 29, 2013, 10:52:56 PM »

Hi Pascal/Missos,
IMHO, South route, Abadan in Iran, and painting practices at the assembly facilities there are not relevant for Gaidaenko's P-39... Planes started to arrive through South route in early 1943.  Those were former USAAF P-39s or direct L-L to Soviets, no British Airacobras...  most of these planes were used on central and south parts of the front (Kuban region is on the Black Sea).

Gaidaenko's 19 giap started to receive Airacobras in May 1942 (year before Kuban fightings!!!) and it was active on the Karelian Front (opposing Finland, quite far away from the Black Sea  Smiley).   Those were definitely British Airacobras Mk I (some used, some conserved by the British) and they arrived through the North Route, i.e. on PQ convoys to Murmansk/Archangelsk.  Some were even lost on route in German submarine attacks...
There was nothing similar to US Abadan facilities in the North.

IMHO, British markings were overpainted by the Soviets, probably with oil paints they had there - not necessarily aviation paints.  I don't think they used AMT paints, especially not the blue AMT-7. AMT-7 appeared sometimes in 1942, maybe even later than May 1942.

P-39 in the Finish museum should give you an idea how this was done and how different Soviet colours could be when compared to British colours.

HTH,
KL
« Last Edit: January 29, 2013, 11:03:02 PM by KL » Logged
66misos
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« Reply #48 on: January 30, 2013, 11:42:50 AM »

Hi KL,
I know that P-39 assembling factory (a part of complex assembling facilities) in Abadan was built from US money to serve/assembly US planes. Not to delivery RAF paint. And nevertheless those RAF paints were there. Looks like British delivered them together with their planes within the same L-L contract. So why not to expect British paints also on the North?

I wrote:
Quote
...assembling factory in Abadan (e.g. South path) built by Douglas ...I know you are interested in Airacobras delivered via Northern path...
Do not worry I know that Karelia is not somewhere around Black See  Wink

V. Roman in his book "'Аэрокобры вступают в бой" writes:
"...Virtually all delivered aircraft (P-39 to RAF - my note) had standard English camouflage of gray and green areas, however, of the "American shade/hue" and British markings and serial numbers - AN570-739, AR264-384, BW100-183, BX135-434..."
In this case the new fresh repainting with standard British RAF paints could make a visible difference from surrounding grey/green of "American shade/hue".
I would like to stress that statement above is not in "must" but in "could be" position. I do not want to exclude some Russian paints but I do not have a clue about their code numbers.
Form modeller point of view using RAF paints of different hue/gloss/Matt seems to be less improvisation then inventing some grayish/greenish color (like "tractor green") Wink And again, unless photo of particular plane shows something different.

Quote
P-39 in the Finish museum should give you an idea how this was done and how different Soviet colours could be when compared to British colours.

If you mean this plane than there are no British colors on this late P-39Q version. There is OD with standard late USAF marking used after august 1943. Olive Drab looks very rusty/weathered/eroded, almost translucent.

Regards,
     66misos


PS: Do you have, please, any idea about color on the tail tip of "16" on the photo im my previous post? It looks darker than (white,silver?) digits but not sure whether same as red star partially visible on the fuselage.
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #49 on: January 30, 2013, 12:37:00 PM »

Hi Misos, hi all,
Quote
PS: Do you have, please, any idea about color on the tail tip of "16" on the photo im my previous post? It looks darker than (white,silver?) digits but not sure whether same as red star partially visible on the fuselage.



Utilizing the picker of my Photoshop on the photo, I see the same shade of grey (64%) both on the star on the fuselage and on the tail cap. So I think it's red.
Regards
Massimo
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66misos
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« Reply #50 on: January 30, 2013, 03:08:00 PM »

Hi Massimo,
thank you for color clarification and also for appreciation in your post above Cheesy. We can discuss it later, however, I think it never will be complete  Sad

regards,
     66misos
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #51 on: January 30, 2013, 05:20:34 PM »

Hi Misos,
the work can always be updated before publishing. It would be good to have more color profiles before starting.
Regards
Massimo
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KL
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« Reply #52 on: January 30, 2013, 06:33:29 PM »

Quote
Do not worry I know that Karelia is not somewhere around Black See

Hi Misos,  Smiley
I am only trying to say that time, location, country of origin etc could make a difference and should be taken in account.

Quote
In this case the new fresh repainting with standard British RAF paints could make a visible difference from surrounding grey/green of "American shade/hue".
I would like to stress that statement above is not in "must" but in "could be" position.

Stress in my post is on "IMHO" - in my opinion.  So other options are possible.  British paints applied by the British, british paints applied by the Soviets, soviet oil aviation paints are also possible...

Quote
PS: Do you have, please, any idea about color on the tail tip of "16" on the photo im my previous post? It looks darker than (white,silver?) digits but not sure whether same as red star partially visible on the fuselage.

Coloured tail tips were regimental quick recognition markins.  They would appear on all planes in a regiment, not on a single plane.  Tipically this type of markings appeared when several units operated in a relatively small area.  For example, during the Winter War or Berlin operation (in both cases Soviet VVS had heavy numerical superiority and were in offensive!!!).
Anyway, red tail tip would be very unusual in 1942.  Did other 19 giap planes have any regimental markings?

HTH,
KL   
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KL
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« Reply #53 on: February 02, 2013, 01:14:35 AM »

Hi Pascal,
Since there are no British Airacobra wrecks, maybe we should rely on wrecks of other British planes delivered in 1941/42 and used by VVS in the North in 1942.  Following Tomahawk and Hurricane fit in this category:




from http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/articles/sheppard/p40recovery/index.htm




from http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/articles/sheppard/hurricane_Z5252/index.htm

If only these two planes are considered, it looks that colours vere a fairly good mach to original American/British colours, markings were probably sprayed with templates, number was carefuly drawn...
HTH,
KL
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Pascal
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« Reply #54 on: February 02, 2013, 10:51:55 PM »

Hi Konstantin,

Thank you for your message, I think you're right and I'll consider these wrecks. I know that Airacobras were repainted in Britain before sending to Russia. There, Soviet mechanics applied red stars and markings. What about Tomahawks and Hurricanes? The same process, or red stars were painted before leaving Britain?

Here is my model, in its current state:



I still wonder how English roundels were covered ... Wink

Pascal
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Pascal
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« Reply #55 on: February 16, 2013, 10:34:21 PM »

Hi,

Here is my Airacobra:



My inspiration came from this detail:



I consider that new markings were paint by British before delivery... So there will be stars on uppersurfaces.

What is your feeling?

Regards,

Pascal
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #56 on: February 16, 2013, 10:57:57 PM »

Hi Pascal,
looks good.
About lighter dishes: I think that the British grey (Ocean grey, if I remember well) was darker when new and then faded; if this color was used, it could be that it appeared lighter in photos because of its more glossy finish and reflects the sky. However it could also be another color but ocean grey.
Regards
Massimo
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KL
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« Reply #57 on: February 17, 2013, 12:48:35 AM »

Quote
I consider that new markings were paint by British before delivery... So there will be stars on uppersurfaces.

What is your feeling?

I agree that British overpainted RAF roundels before delivery.  Smiley

Who painted Red Stars seems to be a separate question.
IMHO, it really depended on what part of the front those ex-RAF planes ended-up:  There are examples of Tomahawks and Huricanes that have markings complient with VVS regulations (wing undersides, fuselage and tail).  It looks that those were confined to Central Front.
Many Tomahawks and Huricanes on North Front had non-complient markings (stars missing from tailfins or stars on wing upper surfaces).  Some Hurricanes had stars on upper wing surfaces, other din't...

It would be good to find a single photo of ex-British Airacobra that shows wing upper surfaces.  If you can't find any it becomes a personal choice....  Lips Sealed

Regards,
KL
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Pascal
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« Reply #58 on: February 17, 2013, 03:08:11 PM »

It would be good to find a single photo of ex-British Airacobra that shows wing upper surfaces.  If you can't find any it becomes a personal choice....

You're right, Konstantin! This is the only photo I know, and I can't see anything: neither a star or even an overpainted area...



Regards,

Pascal
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #59 on: February 17, 2013, 04:45:42 PM »

I can't see stars or repaintings on the fuselage too.
Regards
Massimo
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