Sovietwarplanes
September 22, 2019, 05:43:46 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: This forum replaces the old sovietwarplanes.com whose domain has expired in January 2017. It has been updated with the posts of the year 2016.
The new location of the site 'Sovietwarplanes pages' is at http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register  
Pages: [1]
  Print  
Author Topic: B-25C 1/48 AM  (Read 9121 times)
Ohotnyik
Jr. Member
**
Posts: 91


« on: June 24, 2012, 07:21:04 AM »

B-25B/C
I built the plane some 20 years  ago buti n scale 1:72.
With painting ,according to the information avaiable  that time.
Now  Im buliding the AM1:48 scale kit, and I?d like to paint to camo.
But there are a few uncertain points.
The dircetive 601 as far as I know was only issued to the B-25J variants.
But there were two B-25B/C  paintings  published in an old magazine called  Letecvi i Kosmunautica   what are interest me since then.
Unfortunatly I managed to only find this two poor quality picture of one of the planes.
It is cleas as the sun itself theat it is a camo painting and not the OD/NG
Was the directive 601 issued to these erlier produced and shipped planes also or is it possible that these are reapinted by PARM  with  VVScolors  (AMT-4/AMT-12/AMT-1),or maybe these are after long repair and refitting?
Why did the thought occured to me?
As far as I know the B/C variants were mostly given to the russians in 1942 and the other pictures are all showing OD/NG painted planes.
This pic. was made in 1944 so they told me.
The later delivered J variants painting, and color choosing is greatly similar to the VVS AMT-4/AMT-12/AMT-1 system.

Istv?n















Logged
Massimo Tessitori
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 5777


« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2012, 08:53:52 AM »

Hi Istvan,
thank you for posting these interesting scans.
I agree that the photo surely shows a camouflaged plane, but the pattern on the photo looks different than on the drawings, having a dark nose side contrasting with the light part on the canopy. Or, is it a defect of the scan?
The drawings appear made according to the template utilized in the factory for B-25J, but I think that this plane was repainted with Soviet colors and didn't necessarily followed this pattern.
Regards
Massimo
Logged
Ohotnyik
Jr. Member
**
Posts: 91


« Reply #2 on: June 24, 2012, 05:09:33 PM »

Hallo Massimo,
I have also noticed that the camouflage of the drawing different from the photo?s one.
I can not find out the colour of the underside of the airplane. It can be blue or black as well.
It would be good to have a better photo to see the plane better.


Istv
Logged
Troy Smith
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 380


« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2012, 04:35:14 AM »

Hi Istv?n

I'd not seen [or noticed] evidence of VVS repainting of B-25s, but it made me look at this page again
http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/photogallery/b-25/index.htm

This is only one that shows this as well


undersides look to be black, with a camo applied by the wing, presumeably over the original OD?   

hope of interest
T
Logged
66misos
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1509

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.


WWW
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2012, 02:58:02 PM »

Hi Istvan,

I found this photo:

Text acompanying photo: "Soviet B-25j Mitchell bomber"

Hope it will help you.

Regards,
     66misos
Logged

Troy Smith
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 380


« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2012, 08:30:48 PM »

HI

the pic Sr no 431162 is B-25J a on a test flight in the US.  There are a series of photos of this plane in colour, probably shot for propaganda use.
The scheme is the VVS painting request brought in after the US dropped painting planes, the VVS wanted them camouflaged so North American said what do you want.

The VVS wanted this 


More pics and information here, from the short lived alternate site.   
http://z15.invisionfree.com/sovietwarplanes/index.php?showtopic=60

[Massimo, I'm not sure, has this thread been copied here?  ]

This thread is Istvan asking if  the earlier C and D models, originally delivered in standard US Olive drab over Neutral grey,  got a similar scheme applied by the VVS later on, maybe after a major overhaul?

HTH
T



Logged
Massimo Tessitori
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 5777


« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2012, 09:05:55 AM »

No. Now I will copy and glue the most interesting things... there will be some duplication.


HI

this is not my research, the diagram and text have been posted on Hyperscale by Steven 'Modeldad' Eisenman, but I'm posting them here as this is of specific interest to this site.
In short when the US dropped painting of aircraft in late 1943 this was not acceptable to the VVS, so they B-25s were then painted by North American in a scheme specified by the VVS.

this is a famous image, I have had it in a book for years but it was only reading the thread on hyperscale i found what it was, which is B-25 j on a test flight in the US, but in VVS colours.



here is a pattern diagram.  Of note is the similarity to the 3 colour uppers for the Il2, Il 10 and Pe-2..



The diagram notes about US stars, but from the B-25J pics i have seen they were the coreect type.  There are pics of B-25D's in Alaska with the red stars on white circles.  I think it was only on early deliveries of B-25 C's you see painted out US insignia. Probably worth a separate thread.

Quote
B-25~/ camouflage Mon Jun 19 02:11:59 2000

Aircraft Colors of the 4 Guards Long Range Air Corps by Vasilii Vakhlamov, translated by George M. Mellinger.

The great majority of B-25s of the 4 Guards Air Corps had the traditional American camouflage colors of olive drab above and neutral gray below, The also applied to the Bostons of the "hunter-intruder" regiment. The color was basically simple, though it might change with time, the machines usually were not repainted. the individual aircraft of the corps commander by the end of the war was completely colored "coffee with milk" (very close to Russian brown A-21M orAMT-1) At the time the USA began to issue the B-25J in natural metal color, devoid of camouflage, Standard 407 was established for the Soviet Union. This introduced a three color camouflage above, consisting of olikovii (olive drab), zashchitno-zelyonyi (protective green -field drab,), and grifelno-seryi (slate gray), and black on the lower surfaces. it is necessary to note that while the prescribed arrangement of color fields is supported firmly, the demarcation lines for the black colors did not conform to either form or location. These wavy lines varied, ascending to the top and descending to the very bottom of the fuselage.

The B-25 C & D arrived in the Soviet Union with American markings, a white star in a blue circle, in a diameter of 45 inches, located on the fuselage 94 inches from the trailing edge of the wing, and on the wings 92 inches from the wing tip, above left, and below right, with a diameter of 50 inches. In June 1943 bars were added to circular insignias. On the already produced machines these bars were added, and the B-25G, H, J relocated their markings, but such
aircraft almost never reached the Russians. Red stars were painted over the blue circles. there were also aircraft which
received at the factory an insignia of a white circle with the red star. Sometimes when the blue and white colors were
over-painted, a red star was carried additionally below the left wing. What was done with the upper surface of the right wing is difficult to establish from photographs and memoirs. Sometimes stars were also added to the vertical tail surfaces. Standard 407 specified that the red star with border, without any background was to be painted at the factory in Kansas City. The stars on the fuselage had the size of a circular diameter of 50 inches, and on the wings 55 inches. the whit e border was 2 inches. Whether the Russians added the missing" tail stars in this instance is unknown.

The system of designating the aircraft within the regiments of the corps was well established by 1944. Thus, in the 4 GBAD, the number was placed beneath the cockpit. the numeration was separate for each regiment, but the script was the same and the numbers wee based on the American serial numbers. In the 5 GBAD, the numbers wee placed on the tail rudders, and were sequential beginning with the 14 GBAP, progressing to the 22 GBAP, and ending with the 251 GBAP. the forms of the numbers was different and their color regularly changed according to orders or local
initiative.

The guards badges, honorary names, and other orders at first were barred from display on aircraft. From 1943 the Guards badges shyly began to appear on the B-25s, and in 1944 the order of the red Banner and the inscriptions "Roslaviskii" (13 GBAP), "Smolenskii" (14 GBAP), and "Sevastopolskii" (15 GBAP). Proving more effective and stable at distinguishing the regiments, the decision was taken to follow the practice. The distinctive markings for the Bostons of the 27 GAP was a lightning flash on both sides of the fuselage nose. Various individual emblems and inscriptions began to spread quite widely. Thus on the aircraft of the commander of the 22 GBAP {- 5 GBAD}, {Lt. Col. Aleksandr Andreevich} Balenko was emblazoned an eagle wearing a gold star {symbolic of the HSU}. V. V. Doveiko, a pilot of the 341 BAP {- 4 GBAK}, who had worked in the circus before the war, on the nose of his aircraft had the head of a clown and the words'iZa Sovetskoi iskusstvo" {For Soviet Artistry}. V. Skomorokhin of the 14 GBAP {- 5 GBAD}- "Mstim za krov cLeningrada" {We avenge the blood of Leningrad}. Yu. S. Filimonov of the 250 GBAP {- 4 GBAD} a red falcon on a white circle . As late as 1946 there still appeared on the aircraft of Hero of the Soviet Union {Captain Gora Grigorevich} Agamirov {251 GBAP- 5 G BAD} a drawing representing a white bear. Like all American machines, B-25s had a yellow serial number on the taii fins in 9 inch figures. These were occasionally painted over by the Soviets, but mostly left in place. More rarely, the serial numbers wee removed from the tail and placed on the rear fuselage. On the B-25C & D on the fuselage by the propellers there was a red warning band. Appearing on the B-25D-30 & -35 and B-25J were an additional four machine guns beneath the pilot's cabin. These were removed in the Soviet Union and the uncovered area was painted over with a wide variety of paints from silver to black."

COMMENTS:
Ilya Grinberg
In the translation you provided zashchitno-zelyonyi (protective green -field drab,), and grifelno-seryi (slate gray)are incorrectly translated from English by original authors of the Russian magazine. Field drab is far from being protective green (it is close to RAF dark earth) and slate gray is incorrectly interpreted by them as grifelno-seryi, which means graphite-gray. In fact it is green and has nothing to do with gray.
Likewise, the translation by George carries out these mistakes.
Regards,
Ilya

Note: I believe the colors that were most likely used were ANA 613 Olive Drab, ANA 617 Dark Earth and ANA 603 Sea Gray. 




this a famous image, note the overpainting of the gun pack area with black, and the addition of stars to the fins as mentioned in text above.
The tail star seems a darker colours than the fuselage star (maybe a kremlin star?) , and i can't see evidence of a star added under the starboard wing. (I'll try to do a better scan later)

This  scheme has featured on a now unavailable Cutting Edge decal sheet,CED48055, though the top colours are shown as just Olive Drab.   N
I think it's an option for a decal sheet for the upcoming 1/32 B-25.



the pic appears in Red Stars 4, with another picture of a B-25 "white 17 " listed as the same plane below it, which is not the same plane as this is a B-25 C/D model as you cannot see forward mounted top turret!

one final point on the B-25 martin turret, the 'panel lines' that are often seen painted on models should not be there, as the turrets were made of pieces of glued perspex, what you see are the plastic join lines which appear white at certain angles.
Close study of a good close up will show what i mean.  I will post one when I can find a suitable image.

cheers
T
Logged
Massimo Tessitori
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 5777


« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2012, 09:06:58 AM »

Hi Troy,  Smiley
thanks for posting interesting information!

Same B-25 Mitchell (ant the same photo) from my HD:





Camouflage pattern resembles 1943 NKAP scheme for Pe-2, variation 1 (right scheme on the image below)



Pilawskii?s interpretation gives an idea where green, tan and dark-gray fields were:



If B-25 was painted according to 1943 NKAP scheme, the colours were switched:  gray was used for olive green AMT-6 areas, (olive) drab for gray AMT-12 fields...

Black undersides are typical for ADD (Long Range Aviation units).  Red stars on wing tops were also common on ADD planes.

Cheers,
KL
Logged
Massimo Tessitori
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 5777


« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2012, 09:12:27 AM »

Nice pictures, Konstantin - thank you for posting them! One question - did the Soviets always or usually remove the gunpacks (I've already glued them onto my Hasegawa B-25J)?

Regards,

Jason


Quote from: Learstang,Feb 7 2011, 11:18 PM
Nice pictures, Konstantin - thank you for posting them!  One question - did the Soviets always or usually remove the gunpacks (I've already glued them onto my Hasegawa B-25J)?

Hi Jason

in the bit I quoted above

Quote
Appearing on the B-25D-30 & -35 and B-25J were an additional four machine guns beneath the pilot's cabin. These were removed in the Soviet Union and the uncovered area was painted over with a wide variety of paints from silver to black.

I have not seen a VVS B-25 with these, which makes sense as they were used as bombers, not strafers, and the guns were unneeded weight.

and Konstantin, thanks for your input and photos, very neat to see more color pics.

cheers
Troy



Hi Jason,  Smiley

Troy answered your question ? Soviets used B-25 as a long range bomber and for that role Mitchells didn?t need their gun packs.

But, don?t rush with your screw driver and putty:
Relatively small number of Mitchells was used as night ?intruders? against German airfields.  Purpose of these attacks was to suppress Luftwaffe night figters while ADD bombers were in German airspace.  For these missions Mitchells did need gunpacks!

A-20 Bostons equipped with KABB ?swing guns? described at http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/Modeling/Douglas...20GNF/index.php were designed for, and operationally used in same attacks against German airfields.  Those Bostons were 100% ground attack planes, not night fighters as indicated there.  :angry:
To finish a model, write about it, not knowing what was its role, is a strange concept?  :blink: 

Cheers,
KL




Quote from: Massimo Tessitori,Feb 9 2011, 08:54 AM
Hi,
to tell the truth, the first time that I saw that scan, I thoght that they were night fighters, but the misunderstanding was corrected by further informations.
I think that the author should correct this page.
Regards
Massimo
AKAB installation mounted on VVS Bostons, originates from prewar Mozharovskii-Venevidov ?swinging gun? project.  Diagram at the end of page explains advantages of this installation:



Plane with movable guns can keep target under fire longer time and end fire at closer distance.
    
Cheers,
KL





It's all with that old topic.
Nassimo
Logged
66misos
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1509

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.


WWW
« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2012, 10:14:59 AM »

Hi,
interesting detail, seems applicable also for other planes - style of the red stars.
Instructions in the posted diagram direct "red star ...2" white border", nothing about thin red outline like VVS style. Just red star with white outline.
Stars on those B-25s are painted in this way.

Here is an article about P-63 restoration: http://p63kingcobra.com/63_kingcobra_restoration.html with following picture:

Text accompanying photo: "One of the "spare" P-63 King Cobra wings on display at the Wings Museum UK. The Red Star is original!"

So, not only B-25, but also P-63 had pained red stars with only white outline in the factories. I do not know whether applicable also on P-47.

Could one suppose that if there are red stars with only white outine, plane camo and national insignias were painted still in USA, and if there are red stars with white and thin red outline, plane camo (or only national insignias?) were (re-)painted already in SU?

Regards,
     66misos
Logged

Troy Smith
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 380


« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2012, 02:13:50 AM »

HI

I don't doubt the authenticity of the red star, but it's on the port wing.   

Even when the US eventually switched to red star with white outline, I think they were still applied in US fashion, with stars on port upperwing and starboard underwing only, as shown in the B-25 pics above.

I don't know if Bell eventually switched to application of stars to VVS specifications, US manfacturers applied markings to RAF specifications.

I really must make the effort to go to the Wings musuem, it's about 20  miles from me, [I don't drive and it's not easily accesible by public transport is my excuse.] but I could maybe find out more about this.

cheers
T


Logged
Massimo Tessitori
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 5777


« Reply #11 on: September 15, 2012, 07:22:15 AM »

Hi,
here are Kingcobras still to deliver to the SSSR.

Regards
Massimo
« Last Edit: September 16, 2012, 08:50:29 AM by Massimo Tessitori » Logged
Pages: [1]
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.11 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!