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Author Topic: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"  (Read 79476 times)
KL
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« Reply #15 on: July 04, 2012, 07:39:07 PM »

However, while browsing russian pages, I found article of Alexander F. Klubov from 16. GvIAP http://airaces.narod.ru/all1/klubov.htm, that could teoretically address my first picture above - 35-36 victory stars on P-39 gun bay cover, although Klubov's victory stars distinguish between individual (red/white outline stars) and group (white stars) victories:





Klubov's P-39 by I. Zlobin:


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KL
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« Reply #16 on: July 04, 2012, 10:08:10 PM »

Since 2009 at least 3 new 16th giap related books have been published:

Pokrishkin's biography by Timofeyev


Klubov's biography (same author)


16 giap history by Tabachenko


plus there are many memoirs;  by Pokrishkin, Golubyev, Suhov and others...
although photos are scarce - there should be enough information for the modellers. 
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66misos
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« Reply #17 on: July 06, 2012, 01:45:55 PM »

Hi,

I tried to summarize what known (to me) regarding Pokryhkin's P-39s.

1st P-39
version K-1, board no. "13", serial no. 42-4421
- period 9-Apr-43 to 20-Jun-43.
- Number "13" existed in two modifications, the first one in standard size, the second one enlarged. Red stars with black outline on fuselage and bottom side of the wing.
- Digits "13" latter repainted to "130".
- Up to 21 victories (e.g. till May 14, 1943). More than 20 (Pokryshkin?s memoirs ?Sky of war? (Небо войны)
- No victory marks.

http://airaces.narod.ru/all1/pokrish1.htm:



2nd P-39
version D-2, board no. "100", serial no. 41-38520
- Pokryshkin flew the first time with his new "100" on 5-May-1943 (http://airaces.narod.ru/all1/pokrish1.htm),
- Used only for a short period of time, because hit and destroyed when parked on airfield by another pilot during unsuccessful landing.
- Red stars with black trim over original blue or repainted green (AMT4?) circles on the fuselage and top and bottom side of the wing.
- Period from May 5, 1943 to end of May/ beginning of June?
- Up to 23-25 victories
- No victory marks.

Pokryshkin, should be minus red spinner and minus red tail tip:


Rechkalov:



3rd P-39
version N-0, board no. "100",  serial no. 42-9004
- photo shows only 2900 digits. I found info that 42-9004 was not produced. Could be numbers 42-90040 (v. N-0) or 42-90004 ?
- Equipped with two .30 cal guns in the wings,
- Red stars with black trim over original blue or repainted green (AMT4?) circles on the fuselage and top and bottom side of the wing.
- Red tail tips (in 16 giap introduced in summer 1943)
- No white trim on tail visible, even if red tail tip already painted.
- Red spinner?
- Period summer 1943, e.g. June-August 1943?
- Up to 30 victories (Aug 23, 1943)
- Victory marks ?

Victory marks (?) visible on the front bay cover:


Igor Zlobin?s profile photo from 2006 for period Summer 1943. Red tail tip (no white trim) + red spinner. Victory marks on the front bay cover:


Igor Zlobin?s profile photo from 2009 for period Autumn 1943. No red tail tips, although introduced already in summer 1943? No red spinner. No victory marks:



4th P-39
version N-5, board no. "100", serial no. 42-19138 or 42-19188? I cannot see it clear enough on the Igor Zlobin's profile photo from 2006.
- Period september to May 1945?
- Then 31-46(52) victories.
- Red tail tips.
- Stars with wide white and thin red outline (introduced in Sept 1943).
- white trim on tail?
- Red spinner?
- No victory marks.

Profile could be minus victory stars and different serial number:


Igor Zlobin?s profile photo from 2006 for September 1943. Red spinner, red tail tip. No white trim on tail red tip, no white+red outline on fuselage/wing stars?


Rechkalov v.Q-15. Red spinner, red tail tip with white trim, fuselage/wing stars with white+red outline:


Profiles and additional info:
http://wp.scn.ru/en/ww2/f/297/1/0
http://airaces.narod.ru/all1/pokrish1.htm
http://www.redbanner.co.uk/History/ace_aircraft/rechkalov/rechkalov.html

Any advice, correction, additional info warmly welcome. I am still learning. Wink

KL, thank you for that books advise. I will try to find them on Amazon.

Regards,
       66misos
« Last Edit: July 13, 2012, 03:38:31 PM by 66misos » Logged

KL
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« Reply #18 on: July 06, 2012, 07:54:46 PM »

I saw recently a document film "Two wars of Ivan Kozedub" (Две войны Ивана Кожедуба) on Youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lN1MrJEvW0...  At 22:23-22:26 minute there is a short sequence showing unmasking plane with a lot of victory marks (stars). Here is a screenshot of it:



Hi 66misos,

The pilot who appears with P-39 in the short sequence is Dmitriy Glinka.  It's probably a news reel about him.  Glinka's final score was 50 victories, close to Pokrishkin's, he flew P-39s from 1943.  IMHO, your screenshot shows one of his P-39s.  The only unknown is when the movie was made - 1943, 1944 or 1945...  My guess would be 1944...

Following photos are made in April 1943 at the time of Kuban battles






From http://airaces.narod.ru/all1/glinka_d.htm
« Last Edit: July 06, 2012, 07:58:14 PM by KL » Logged
KL
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« Reply #19 on: July 07, 2012, 01:04:01 AM »



It seems to be some P-39.
Star seems to be red without white outline. Plus, stars are oriented horizontally, with the same number in the first 3 lines. The fourth line has (at least) 4 stars less than previous lines. When comparing panel lines and stars dimensions to Rechkalov's ones it seems to be 35-36 victory marks.

A.S. Yakovlev (famous for his Yak fighters) writes following about Glinka brothers in his book "Tsel Zhizni":

На фюзеляжах боевых машин старшего лейтенанта Дмитрия Глинки и лейтенанта Бориса Глинки были нарисованы 31 звезда, обозначавшие количество сбитых братьями немецких самолетов.

http://readr.ru/aleksandr-yakovlev-cel-ghizni.html?page=148#ixzz1zsyns43b

31 stars were drawn on fuselages of Dmitrii and Boris Glinka combat planes, signifying the number of German planes shot down by brothers.

Text published in "Ogonek" magazine mentiones 33 joint victories...

« Last Edit: July 07, 2012, 01:09:59 AM by KL » Logged
66misos
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« Reply #20 on: July 10, 2012, 11:26:21 AM »

Hi,
I browsed through http://airaces.narod.ru There is a lot of retouched photos.
I picked up only a couple of examples. That retouch is visible, sometimes more, sometimes less, but visible.
When somebody was celebrating, the goal of retouch was to make him look better or to show what make him famous:

      






However there is also an example of retouch when someone is not really celebrated. I do not want to make politics here, just the retouch example:



The following photo does not look very much like retouch (although that main wheels...). More like poor quality of the photo or a way it was processing when published. Or a scan from the documentary film. It does not make sense to hide (cca 30) victory stars on the plane of somebody honored twice HSU (end of August 1943) and celebrated accordingly.


Regards,
   66misos
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KL
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« Reply #21 on: July 11, 2012, 01:22:47 AM »

The following photo does not look very much like retouch (although that main wheels...). More like poor quality of the photo or a way it was processing when published. Or a scan from the documentary film. It does not make sense to hide (cca 30) victory stars on the plane of somebody honored twice HSU (end of August 1943) and celebrated accordingly.


I don't think that anybody intentionaly erased victory marks from that photo.  The fact is that the quality of the photo is so poor that it has limited value as a source.  Traces of retouch make things even worse.  30+ stars aligned in 4 neat rows simply are not visible on this photo.

In cases like this one, colours and markings are reconstructed/based on information from documents, memoirs and analogies.  More information you collect, reconstruction will be better.

Pilots did change planes, individual planes did change appearance over the time - it is better to know the whole story than to rely on a single photo.  Discovering that story makes modelling more interesting.

Happy modelling,
KL 
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66misos
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« Reply #22 on: July 11, 2012, 10:42:57 AM »

Hi KL,

I fully agree with your post. Moreover, I think that your words:
Quote
... The fact is that the quality of the photo is so poor that it has limited value as a source.  Traces of retouch make things even worse...
In cases like this one, colours and markings are reconstructed/based on information from documents, memoirs and analogies.  More information you collect, reconstruction will be better.

Pilots did change planes, individual planes did change appearance over the time - it is better to know the whole story than to rely on a single photo.  Discovering that story makes modelling more interesting.
could open the discussions about almost every profile, not only WWII and not only aircraft.

I finally abandon the idea that the first picture in this topic with 35-36 victory stars shows some Pokryshkin's P-39 Cry
Let me come back to his 3rd P-39, version N-0, board no. "100", serial no. 42-9004:

It was used during summer 1943 (June-August 1943?).

I checked numbers and dates of his victories at http://airaces.narod.ru/all1/pokrish1.htm
   1.) If this photo shows aircraft shortly after delivery (end of May 1943), there COULD BE 22-25 victory stars.
   2.) If this photo shows aircraft from August 1943, then there COULD BE 30 victory stars.

Red color was poorly distinguishable on the olive green backgroung. Also this photo can prove it:

Russian text says: "On 24415 ... red star is poorly distinguishable on the dark green... (enhanced by retouch)."
Note the main wheel cover on this photo in comparison to previous P-39 "100" photo.

I do not know from what period is P-39 "100" on that photo. When looking at it I see that:
- left main wheel has "visible" central disk. Missing wheel cover? I do not thin so, it is only retouch performed not very correctly,
- there is visible demarcation line on the tail (I marked it by two black arrows). Red tail tips were introduced in 16 giap in summer 1943.
   So:
        - if that photo shows red tail tip, then P-39 could be from August 1943,
        - if victory marks are red stars without white outline, they could be there but poorly visible.


I watched again the film about Pokryshkin on Youtube. I make two screen shots from it:

1.) National insignia on the wing - red star over very regular and sharp backgound. Original blue, or carefully repainted to green?
    

2.) Color on the spinner is slightly lighter than on the fuselage. Red spinner?    
     Color of propeller blades is relatively bright. Not black, but grey or natural metal finish?
    

3.) Three white strips on the wing. I saw it also on the some kit. Do anyone know purpose of them?
    

Regards,
   66misos

« Last Edit: July 11, 2012, 04:56:49 PM by 66misos » Logged

66misos
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« Reply #23 on: July 11, 2012, 11:07:11 AM »

Just for curiosity.
I think some kind of maintenance or repairing is performed on P-39 "100" on this photo:


Reasons:
- this Airacobra falls on tail. At least in comparison to Glinka's P-39 on the photo above,
- there is some kind of support structure bellow front fuselage (marked green),
- front wheel seems not to be under weight. I do not know right English terminology to explain it, so I added picture of the other P-39 and the main differences marked red  Wink

Regards,
   66misos
« Last Edit: July 11, 2012, 01:35:38 PM by 66misos » Logged

66misos
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« Reply #24 on: July 13, 2012, 03:29:27 PM »

I asked myself a question why Pokryshkin was photographed/filmed at Rechkalov's plane when awarded second time "Gold Star" HSU.
   1.) To keep Pokryshkin's P-39 in secret?
   2.) Just because?
   3.) Anything else?

To find possible reason within "3.) Anything else" I put some dates and events found at http://airaces.narod.ru/all1/pokrish1.htm and http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic_t_14131_start_40.html to chronology:

1.    23.8.1943           30th enemy plane personally shot down,

2.    24.8.1943           Major Pokryshkin was awarded the second medal " Gold Star", become twice HSU (for 455 combat sorties and 30 enemy planes personally shot down until July 1943),   
   
3.   Summer 1943       While of Pokryshkin's P-39 "42-9004" under repairing/maintenance
                               

4.   After 24.8.1943    Pokryshkin is photographed standing in front of Rechkalov's P-39 N-0 serial no. 42-8747 by famous journalist G.N. Bey ( http://www.redbanner.co.uk/History/ace_aircraft/rechkalov/rechkalov.html )
                             

5.   september 1943    Pokryshkin recieved new P-39 N-5, board no. "100", serial no. 42-19138 or 42-19188?

6.   1944                   Former Pokryshkin's "29004" was written off in 1944. However not in 16th GvIAP but in another unit where it was used for training.

What do you think?

Regards,
   66misos


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KL
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« Reply #25 on: July 13, 2012, 08:36:05 PM »

Quote
I asked myself a question why Pokryshkin was photographed/filmed at Rechkalov's plane when awarded second time "Gold Star" HSU.

Pokrishkin was awarded for the second time as a HSU in Augiust 1943.  The third HSU award was in August 1944.
Pokrishkin was photographed in front of Rechkalov's P-39s (two of them!) in 1944 and in 1945, not in 1943.

Following photo was taken in September 1944.  Pokrishkin in P-39N (42-8747) cockpit.  55 stars marked Rechkalov's victories.


these two photos were probably taken on the same ocasion - pilots greeting Pokrishkin for his third HSU award



Following stills are from 1945 movie.  the movie was taken in Germany.  Pokrishkin is again in Rechkalovs P-39 and he is again greeted by his pilots.  The plane is P-39Q (44-2547).  In spite of what Pilawskii writes, this second plane had exactly the same markings as the earlier P-39N:  victory stars on its nose and RGA on its fuselage...


In 1944 and 1945, Pokrishkin was a stab officer, he was a 9 guards fighter division commander.  Pokrishkin didn't fly as much as in 1943 and he did not score as much - maybe 3 victories in 1.5 years.  Check his victories at http://airaces.narod.ru/all1/pokrish1.htm
40 victories till mid-December 1943 and total score of 46 (or 43 only).

The key is in dates - no secrets, no misteries, no conspiracies...

HTH.
KL  
« Last Edit: July 14, 2012, 09:32:29 AM by KL » Logged
66misos
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« Reply #26 on: July 13, 2012, 10:23:27 PM »

hi KL,
don't worry, no conspiracy.  Smiley
You are absolutely right about that Rechkalov's plane. By the end of august 1943 he had "only" 32 victories, not 55 as on that photo. Mea culpa.

Regards,
   66misos


PS: Have you any idea, please, about 3 white stripes on some P-39 wings?
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KL
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« Reply #27 on: July 13, 2012, 10:50:56 PM »

PS: Have you any idea, please, about 3 white stripes on some P-39 wings?

No idea...  Yak-9Ts (armed with 37mm cannons, same as P-39s) had one white line on each wing leading edge.  These lines somehow helped aiming the cannons...  probably for ground attacks.   
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Ohotnyik
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« Reply #28 on: July 14, 2012, 06:26:24 AM »

PS: Have you any idea, please, about 3 white stripes on some P-39 wings?

As I know these white stripes were shown on the planes which participated on the fights of Berlin.
I could find such a stripe only on the left wing of the P-39, but there were stripes of both wings of the Kosolapov La-7.






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learstang
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« Reply #29 on: July 14, 2012, 06:35:01 AM »

These are an interesting decorative element.  I suppose by the Battle of Berlin, the Luftwaffe was a spent force and there wasn't much need for camouflage, rather there was a need for easily identifying different Red Air Force units.  I'd like to see a photograph of a P-39 with them.

Regards,

Jason
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