Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"

[learstang]

I haven't seen them yet.
The first Soviet colour film was "Victory parade" filmed in summer 1945 on captured German films and developed in occupied Germany.
In 1943 Exhibition of captured german war material in Moscow was also filmed in colour -so there is a Soviet colour movie of captured German planes

I wonder if the Germans made any colour films of Soviet trophies on display in Germany?  Now that would be something worth finding.  I don't know of any, but I'd love to see some.  Even just photographs would be great.  I've seen some colour photographs of Barbarossa victims, of course, but none of trophies on display in Germany.

Regards,

Jason

[66misos]

Hi KL,

I just received the book

as a present from my Russian friend 

Interesting book, some 750 pages. No photos of planes but pilots and officier from 16th GIAP. The book is basically a diary or list of all flights of the 16th GIAP day by day, flight by flight.
Basically each flight is described as "Group of planes of serial numbers (list of serials, no board numbers) flown by pilots (list of names) did something (date and time). During the flight this group together spent following ammunition (quantity and caliber of spent ammunition)." And then comment follows if there happend something interesting - usually big difference between reality and memoirs.

I found an interesting info about spent ammunition. There is written that unit started with P-39 Airacobras of type D-2, K-1 and L-1, all identified by serial number, but no board number. All these types should be armed with 37mm cannon. There is no mention about D-1 or P-400 type armed with 20mm cannon.

9-Apr-1943 - the first day on the front
Group flight, Pokryshkin plus other pilots, spent ammunition: 12,7mm and 7,62mm bullets.

10-Apr
Group flight, Pokryshkin plus other pilots, spent ammunition: 12 20mm cannon shells, 12,7mm and 7,62mm bullets,

11-Apr
Group flight, other pilots, spent ammunition: 80 37mm cannon shells, 12,7mm and 7,62mm bullets,
Group flight, Pokryshkin plus other pilots, spent ammunition: 76 37mm cannon shells, 12,7mm and 7,62mm bullets,
Group flight, other pilots, spent ammunition: 28 37mm cannon shells, 12,7mm and 7,62mm bullets,

15-Apr
Group flight, Pokryshkin plus other pilots, spent ammunition: 57 37mm cannon shells, 10 20mm cannon shells, 12,7mm and 7,62mm bullets,
Group flight, Pokryshkin plus other pilots, spent ammunition: 60 37mm cannon shells, 12,7mm and 7,62mm bullets,

16-Apr and latter
Group flight, spent ammunition: 37mm cannon shells and 12,7mm and 7,62mm bullets. No 20mm cannon shells.

Seems that during the first week or so there was at least one P-39 armed with 20mm cannon and a small number of 20mm shells was spent. As mentioned above no such type (D-1 or P-400 or field replacement?) is listed in the official records.
On the other side, there is no mention (or at least I did not find it) about 20mm cannon shells after 15-April. Another indication that stories in memoirs about replacement of old, weak (with 20mm cannon) "13" by stronger "100" (with 37mm cannon) sometime in July are just a fictions.

Regards,
     66misos

[66misos]

Hi,
I browed in that book again I found info that change written above or are in contradiction with the other info already posted in this topic.

1.) Tabachenko in his book writes that armament of Airacobras consisted generally of 20mm cannon, 12,7mm guns and 7,62mm guns. Version D-2 had reduced volume of bullets for fuselage guns to reduce overall mass of the plane. And in the last Q version was installed 37mm cannon instead of 20mm cannon.
This is in the direct contradiction with the all info on the specialized P-39 pages - there was primarily 37mm cannon on all P-39 version except export versions P-39D-1 and P-400.
However, it is in line with the pictures:




showing of P-39, S/N: 138416, reputedly version D-2, but having 20mm cannon instead of 37mm cannon (my post ? Reply #49 on: September 06). This plane was in 45th IAP since February 1943.

I have to correct my yesterday statement

16-Apr and latter
Group flight, spent ammunition: 37mm cannon shells and 12,7mm and 7,62mm bullets. No 20mm cannon shells.

While browsing the book again and found what I overlooked before (Russian in not my native language) about spent ammunition:
- Group flight on May 10th, 26 37mm cannon shells and 18 20mm cannon shells plus 12,7 and 7,62 bullets,
- Group flight on May 14th, 36 37mm cannon shells and 108 20mm cannon shells plus 12,7 and 7,62 bullets, latter group flight spent 15 37mm and 50 20mm cannon shells,
- Group flight on May 27th, 6 37mm cannon shells and 5 20mm cannon shells plus 12,7 and 7,62 bullets,
- Group flight on May 28th, 19 37mm cannon shells and 54 20mm cannon shells plus 12,7 and 7,62 bullets, latter group flight spent 8 37mm and 6 20mm cannon shells, etc.

It looks like they used P-39 planes with both 20mm cannon or with 37mm cannon for quite a long period (April-May).
So building early P-39 of serial 138xxx from 16 GIAP armed with 20mm cannon would not have been a nonsense if photo of the particular aircraft does not clearly show 37mm cannon.

regards,
     66misos

[66misos]

Hi,

I would like to add some other details about Airacobras with 20mm cannons in VVS.
Roughly in parallel with P-39D production, Bell manufactured a total of 675 "P-400" Airacobras for export. The P-400 was very similar to the P-39D-1, with the 20 millimeter Hispano cannon, but instead of 7.62 millimeter Brownings in the wings it featured 7.7 millimeter (0.303 caliber) Brownings for compatibility with British ammunition.
Only a portion of the P-400 order was delivered to the UK. The remainder of the batch was shipped to the USSR or was taken in to US Army Air Forces (USAAF) service.

There is an interesting article "Early Versions of Airacobra Aircraft in Soviet Aviation" by Valeriy Romanenko at http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/articles/romanenko/p-39/. I picked up info about L-L aircraft delivery/acceptance process:

"?The crates containing aircraft components were opened, inventoried, and checked for damage in the presence of the representative of the Import Directorate. Special attention was given to the "newness" of the aircraft (had this aircraft been subjected to previous use and repair).

? a significant portion of the Hurricanes and P-40Cs that had arrived earlier had been flown for some time in the RAF and had exhausted a significant percentage of their use life. Representatives of the military commission of the USSR in Great Britain had noted cases when new aircraft arriving from the USA were taken into the inventory of the Royal Air Force to replace other aircraft already in use. These aircraft underwent repair, were disassembled, packed in crates, and sent to the USSR.

P-39D-2 Airacobras (Bell Model-14A) arrived in the USSR exclusively by the "southern" route, through Iran.
In the summer of 1942, the Soviet VVS created an assembly airfield at Abadan (Iran) and positioned there approximately 300 Soviet engineers and and workers...

The route functioned in the following manner for Airacobras. The airplanes delivered by sea were unloaded in Abadan, assembled by Soviet specialists, and test flown by Soviet pilots. They were ferried along an air route to Teheran, to the Kvali Marga airfield, where military representatives of the Import Directorate received them. Subsequently the aircraft were ferried to a training center in the town Adzhi-Kabul [about 80 km southwest of Baku] (Azerbaydzhan) or to ferrying airfields in the vicinity of the city Kirovabad... British and American specialists were allowed minimal participation in the delivery of these aircraft.

At Adzhi-Kabul the delivered aircraft were turned over to the 25th ZAP, which was the "southern" training center analogous to the 22d ZAP. ? Specifically, in the period from 28 November 1942 through 4 May 1943, 57 Airacobra P-39D-2s (serial numbers 41-38414, 416-38, 440, 444-63, 520, 528, 532, 540, 541, 544-47, 550, 555, and 556) and one P-39D-1 (41-28257, the first in that series) arrived at 25th ZAP..."

Examples of the P-39D-1 and P-400 from USAF 35FG in Pacific from similar series (e.g. serial numbers) as 16th GIAP had:
S/N: 41-38343 (138343):


S/N: 41-38347 (138347):


S/N: 41-38337 (138337):


Although these 3 photos are only examples of Airacobras from Pacific, they can give an idea how those former USAF planes were worn and that some repairing and repainting to make them looking good/new enough for L-L purposes was necessary.

Were they repainted (Olive Drab / Grey) in USA before transport or in Iran after assembling?
Did overall painting job include VVS red stars?
This could explain why the red stars with thin black outline are painted (at least in some cases) on the upperwings + underwings + fuselage like at Hurricanes and Spitfires and blue circles behind stars are not visible or almost not in many cases from that period:








And info from Romanenko's article show that version P-39D1 was delivered to VVS via "southern" route and could also explain how pilots in 16th GIAP could fire 20mm cannon shells, e.g. used P-39D1, although this P-39 version in not mentioned in the (known) published documents about 16th GIAP.

Regards,
     66misos

[KL]

Hi 66misos,  

According to V. Romanenko, VVS has received only 3 (only three!) P-39D-1.  Two were delivered through the Northern route and one arrived from the South.  IMHO, P-39D-1 has never been used in Pokrishkin's regiment.

There is some confusion around P-39D-2 nose cannon in western literature (english, incl literature published in Poland like the recent Mushroom P-39 book).  Some sources give 20mm cannon, some 37mm cannon for P-39D-2.  The most reliable date is in Romanenko's first P-39 book - P-39D-2 had 20mm cannon!!!
Earlier in this thread I also made a mistake and wrote about the 37mm cannon on Pokrishkin's P-39D-2.  That was wrong...  

In April 1943, 16giap had both P-39D-2s and 37mm cannon equiped P-39K Airacobras.  In April-May 1943, Pokrishkin probably flew more than once on P-39D-2s.  It looks that the problem is in the Pokrishkin's memoirs:  he says that he scored most of his victories on No "13" and that he later switched from his 20mm equipped P-39D-2 to a 37mm equipped P-39N Airacobra.  From this, reader will conclude that No "13" was a P-39D-2.  In reality, No ?13? was P-39K S/N 24421.  It looks that Pokrishkin's "personal plane" was P-39D-2, but he flew more often P-39K No "13".  Everithing fits, even that episode when Pokrishkin replaced "his" old P-39D-2 with the later 37mm equipped P-39N Airacobra.

Cheers,
KL

PS:  You have collected great material in this thread - many questions are answered and the whole story about Pokrishkin's P-39s becomes clear...     

[66misos]

Hi KL,

thank you for your post. I really appreciate your "PS"  
However, there is still a lot of questions.

I made a time diagram showing presence of the different (Pokryshkin's) P-39s in 16 GIAP. Everything is put on the one commom time line to get clearer picture.
Where exact date is known, there color starts/ends sharply.
Where exact date is not known, there color gradient is used.
.

Some interesting outcomes resulting from that picture:
1.) the first one was S/N: 24421, then S/N: 138520 came after 10 days and then, after cca 1 month, S/N: 29004 came. And for some (short) time all three together were active in 16 GIAP,
2.) all known photos of Pokryshkin's P-39s are from "before red spinner & red tail tip" era,
3.) one P-39N-5 S/N 219158 (S/N provided by Igor Zlobin) could reach "red spinner & red tail tip" era if survived long enough,
4.) there two "windows" where is no Pokryshkin's plane but Pokryshkin evidently flew fight flight - either there were several another "100"s or he  regularly used someone's else plane. After he was assigned 16 GIAP commander (end of 1943) it was only upon his discretion what/whose plane he will use.
5.) yellow bars shows presence of the other P-39s with similar S/N to Pokryshkin's 219158.

Here are some notes about plane usage in VVS (info from tabachenko book).
The particular plane was not strictly dedicated to the particular pilot. Any pilot of particular IAP (GIAP) could be ordered to fly any plane from the unit. However, each pilot made effort to fly ?his? plane. But if some better pilot or pilot without plane at that moment (e.g. damaged plane, maintenance, etc.) had to fly, he could fly any plane ordered to him by the unit commander.
Only person strictly related to the plane was named technician. He was responsible ?by his head? that aircraft and its armament were duly. His duty was to prepare the plane to fly, but only commander decided who will fly the plane.
Commander of the IAP (GIAP) could choose fly any plane from his unit, because all planes were ?his?.
Example: When Pokryshkin got 3rd HSU, he was photographed in the Rechkalov?s plane in August 1944 after returned from flight in this Rechkalov?s plane.
There were only 21 Airacobras with ready to fly status in 16 GIAP on April 29, 1943 ? and only 5 of them were P-39D-2, rest of them were P-39K-1 and L1. P-39K-1 S/N: 24421 was on the first place of the list (belonged to unit commander?), and P-39D-2 S/N: 138520 was the last one on the list. The list was not in alphabetical order, or version order, or S/N order. It looks more like unit hierarchy order.

Regards,
     66misos

[66misos]

Hi,

I found some mistakes in my previous diagram above. I checked again dates and relevant photos and prepared another diagram. Here I included more aircraft from 16GIAP - either known photos showing serial numbers or aircrafts with similar serial number mentioned in Tabachenko's book to get broader view when particular camo and marking was used.
On the very left side of the diagram are small pictures - photos already shown within this thread - to help you get better idea about particular plane.

I unified used colors - green (with date, if known) shows start and period of usage of the plane, red (with date, if known) shows end of usage (written-off, crash, shot down, etc.)



Colored area shows period when USAAF changed national marking and when red spinner and red tail tip was introduced. Interestingly, majority of the known photos are from era before red spinner and red tail tip. It looks like almost all profiles on the web showing P-39s from Kuban campaign with red spinner and red tail tip are incorrect.

If dates are correct, then all three P-39 with S/N: 24421, 138520 and 29004 were in 16GIAP during period from cca 15-May to 20-Jun (and could be flown by Pokryshkin, that time 21-25 victories), with very probably the same camo and marking - without red spinner and red tail tip and without victory marks.

Regards,
     66misos

[66misos]

Hi,

here I tried to visually summarized what was already written about Pokryshkin's planes in this thread. I made a simple profile of his first plane, P-39K-1, S/N: 24421, board no. "13" (Александр Иванович Покрышкин, П-39K-1 "Аэрокобра", серийный номер 42-4421 (24421), бортовой номер ?13?, Апрель / Май 1943.), focused more on the camouflage and marking for modeller purpose, than on the construction details:
- propeller spinner in Olive Drab,
- propeller spinner with the big hole and 37mm cannon,
- black propeller blades with yellow stencils and yellow tips,
- no red tail tip,
- red stars with thin black outline on 6 positions,
- red stars are painted over standard USAAF stars, not over "Buffalo factory version" (red stars over white circles on the fuselage and underwings),
- blue circles under the red stars are overpainted with Olive Drab and Medium Grey - centrally with the US paints, not in the field conditions within 16 GIAP, fresh color is visible against weathered surrounding area,
- digits "13" in the big version after repainting, mentioned by Pokryshkin himself in his memoirs,
- no victory marks:




As there is not known photo of this plane I used following photos as references from the same time period together with time diagram posted on 8-Nov-2012:

1.) planes with the very similar serial no. showing:
     - red star on the fuselage without any (visible) circle bellow it,
     - propeller spinner of the same color as fuselage,
     - original size of the board number (for small "13")





2.) plane showing:
     - red star on the right upperwing without any (visible) circle bellow it,
     - yellow tips in the propeller blades:



3.) Plane showing new, big size of the board number (for big "13"):



4.) Plane with:
     - big hole in the propeller spinner for either 37mm or 20mm cannon,
     - bright stencils on the propeller blade, e.g. black blades with yellow tips:
   


5.) Big hole without cover for 37mm cannon in propeller:



6.) Another plane with:
     - red star on the right upperwing without any (visible) circle bellow it,
     - red star on the fuselage without any (visible) circle bellow it,
     - black propeller blades with bright (yellow) stencils and yellow tips, but without Aeroproducts logo,
     - original size of the board number (for small "13"):




7.) Planes (on b&w photos #2,3,4,5) with no visible or very subtle visible darker circle bellow red star on the fuselage:


Non of these planes shows red tail tip.

Any comment is more than welcome.

Regards,
     66misos

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi Misos,
it is a nice work of research and a nice drawing. Are you working for some site or publication?
Regards
Massimo

[66misos]

Hi Massimo,
thank you I do not work for any site or publication. It is just hobby.

regards,
     66misos

[Massimo Tessitori]

I see. Would you collect drawings and documents into a page on P-39s, maybe with the help of Konstantin? If you have the skill to make color profiles, the thing looks very feasible.
Regards
Massimo

[marluc]

Great research 66misos,thanks for sharing it with us.Greetings.

Martin

[66misos]

Hi,
Thanks again.
Massimo, no problem for me to collect all documents and drawings into a page about Pokryshkin's P-39s. As a modeller I found a lot of answers regarding VVS camo at your pages. For reciprocity I will be happy to help other modellers or enthusiatists to find answers.
However, I would like to post profiles of three other P-39 flown by Pokryshkin and expose them to discussion before.

Regards,
     66misos

[learstang]

Your efforts are appreciated, 66misos!

Best Regards,

Jason

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi Misos,
 you can start when you feel to be ready. Maybe you could discuss and draw other P-39s too.
Regards
Massimo