Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"

[66misos]

Hi Massimo,

my attention was attracted by P-400 Aircobras from the 19th GIAP in East Carelia.
But only after this my "heart affair" is finished. My free time has limited span and there is so many things to do Three almost finished kits are waiting.
Regards,
    66misos

[KL]

my attention was attracted by P-400 Aircobras from the 19th GIAP in East Carelia.

AFAIK, designation P-400 wasn't used for any Soviet Aircobras...
According to  http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_fighters/p39_5.html

After Pearl Harbor, the USA found itself in desperate need of aircraft to stem the Japanese onslaught in the Pacific. Consequently, nearly 200 of the British direct-purchase Airacobras still in the USA were promptly requisitioned by the USAAC. Although they were similar to the USAAC's P-39Ds, they were not identical and were known by the USAAC under the non-standard designation of P-400. The P-400 designation had, in fact, been associated with the British Airacobras for contractual purposes as early as August 1941. The USAAC P-400s retained their original British serial numbers and their three-color camouflage paint. Most of these planes were used for training stateside, but some of them were rushed to the Southwest Pacific in an attempt to stem the onrushing Japanese advance.

So, P-400s were Aircobras made for RAF, but wich ended in USAAC service...  If such British order Airacobra was supplied to Soviets by the British it should have had British designation, i.e. Airacobra Mk I.  If supplied by Americans it was designated P-39D Airacobra...

Regards,
KL 

[KL]

corrected P-39D-2 No 138428 profile by M. Bikov at http://owl-99.livejournal.com/1824.html
This Airacobra was flown (mostly) by Fadeyev



No red spinner and tail tip, no blue disc (it's OD now).

Some more recent profiles by I. Zlobin and others are available at  http://soviet-aces.narod.ru/index.html

D. Glinka's Airacobra


Pokrishkin's P-39N


Rechkalov's N and Q



Klubov's N


Regards,
KL

[66misos]

Hi KL,
I still do not understand one thing - how it was possible that some P-39 from 16th GIAP could fire 20mm cannon shells.

1.) overall info about P-39 is on:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_P-39_Airacobra

2.) table showing what P-39 version had what serial number, or into what series it belongs:
http://www.uswarplanes.net/p39p63.html

3.) history with explanation what P-39 version was produced in what time period:
http://www.americancombatplanes.com/p39_1.html

plus a number of other pages on Google.
All pages I saw until now say that basically all P-39 versions were armed with 37mm cannon (e.g. by original design), only version P-39D-1 and P-400 (Lend&Lease models, produced parallelly) were armed with 20mm cannon.
According to the pages above:
P-39D-1 (Model 14A) was the only "D" version with 20mm cannon and had serials 41-28257 to 41-28406, 41-38220 to 41-38404 and 41-38563.
All other versions, including Fadeyev's P-39, board no. "37", serial no. 41-38428 was version D-2 (Model 14A-1) belonged to production series 41-38405 to 41-38562 and armed with 37mm cannon.
I suppose that Americans know exactly what they write about their own plane.

On the other hand, Tabachenko writes in his book that pilots from 16th GIAP used both 20mm (in minority) and 37mm (in vast majority) cannon shells.
And to make situation more foggy, the "oldest" P-39 mentioned in his book is board no. "40", serial 41-38416, which is the eleventh plane from already D-2 series, not D-1 series.
But photo of this plane:


shows long thin barrel going from propeller - most probably 20mm cannon without muzzle break #1  37mm cannon had much shorter barrel.
Propeller spinner is clearly painted with the color different from Olive Drab or Medium Grey, but very similar to bright color of the red star on the fuselage, although plane crashed on 16-Aug-1943... #2

Looks like something somewhere is wrong in the "paperwork".

Regards,
     66misos

[KL]

Hi KL,
I still do not understand one thing - how it was possible that some P-39 from 16th GIAP could fire 20mm cannon shells.

16 giap initially had P-39D-2s armed with 20mm cannons and P-39Ks and P-39Ls armed with 37mm cannons.

No doubts about P-39D-2 and its 20mm cannon in "Aerokobri vstupaut v boi" - its technical description is based on original manuals.  Drawings are also from original manuals.

I suppose that Americans know exactly what they write about their own plane.

Americans knew what they were making and sending to SSSR.  The problem was created later in popular literature in which erronous information was perpetuated.
HTH,
KL

[66misos]

Hi KL,
very interesting, but for me still confusing 
Would it be possible to post any picture, drawing or instruction showing that some or all P-39D-2 in VVS were armed with 20mm cannon, instead of 37mm cannon? It would by very significant information.
Thank you very much in advance.

Regards,
     66misos

[KL]

very interesting, but for me still confusing  
Would it be possible to post any picture, drawing or instruction showing that some or all P-39D-2 in VVS were armed with 20mm cannon, instead of 37mm cannon? It would by very significant information.

First, forget what Wikipedia says!  Then, download Romanenkov's "Aerokobri vstupayut v boi" - everything is explained there:
P-39D (Bell Model 15) was armed with 37mm cannon.  It was ordered by Americans for their USAAC.  60+360 were made.
P-39D-1 and P-39D-2 (Bell Model 14A) were Land-Lease orders.  Both were armed with more reliable 20mm cannons.  This was an American licence of the British Hispano designated M-1.  Main difference between D-1 and D-2 was the engine.

One single P-39D-1 ended in 104 giap.  All other Aircobras armed with 20mm cannons that fought at Kuban in spring 1943 were P-39D-2.  Fadeyev's 41-38428 "37" was P-39D-2, Iskrin's 4138555 "27" was P-39D-2.  Rechkalov sometimes flew on P-39D-2 41-38547, Pokrishkin on 41-38520.

P-39D-2 Techn description from Romanenkov's book:




HTH,
KL
 

[learstang]

I have a question about the technical manuals for the Kobras, Konstantin; were the Soviets supplied with any Russian manuals, or were they all in English, which then had to be translated?  I seem to recall that they were in English.

Regards,

Jason

[KL]

... were the Soviets supplied with any Russian manuals, or were they all in English, which then had to be translated?  I seem to recall that they were in English.

American manuals were supplied with L-L planes. Soviets created and published their own manuals in Russian.  Russian manual for Airacobra Mk I is available on the web

Самолет Аэрокобра c мотором аллисон V-1710-E4. Техническое описание


All differences between P-39D and P-39D-2 are listed at the end of this manual .

HTH,
KL

[learstang]

Thank you for the information, Konstantin!  I'll look for that manual (if I don't already have it - I have quite a few GPW manuals).

Regards,

Jason

[KL]

Hi 66misos,

if you read carefully Ray Wagner's P-39 pages it is clear that P-39D-2 was armed with 20mm cannon.

The P-39D and export P-400 came off the assembly lines at the same time, both with the V-1710-35 engine, self-sealing tanks, four .30-caliber wing guns with 4,000 rounds, and two synchronized .50s with 400 rounds in the nose. The P-39D had a 37-mm M-9 gun with 30 rounds, 191 pounds of armor, and 66 pounds of armor-glass. Since tank protection reduced internal fuel capacity from 170 to 120 gallons, a February 1941 order added provisions for a 75-gallon belly drop tank, or a 600-pound bomb, on the P-39D.

The P-400 used the more rapid-firing 20-mm HS gun with a 60-round drum, 231 pounds of armor and 60 pounds of armor-glass, the heaviest protection of any American fighter, as well as the 240-pound leak proof fuel bags and a 110-pound radio.

The first P-39D, priced at $41,479, was delivered February 3, 1941, but remained at the factory until December, while regular deliveries to Selfridge Field began May 5. Bell completed 429 P-39D models in 1941, too quickly for the available guns or Curtiss Electric propellers; only 390 37-mm aircraft guns in total were completed that year.

Of 675 Airacobra Is built, 477 were shipped to Britain, two lost in tests, and 196 requisitioned by the Army Air Force at the factory after the United States entered the war. The USSR received 195 from Britain via convoys to North Russia, and 71 others were sunk en route.* Heavy convoy losses delayed shipment to Russia of another 179 P-400s which were instead transferred to two AAF groups in the United Kingdom, leaving only 32 retained or expended by the RAF.

Lend-lease funds were used for the Model 14A, first ordered June 11, 1941, to follow the Model 14 in 1942. The first 336 were designated P-39D-1 and had a 20-mm gun with 60 rounds, two synchronized .50s with 430 rounds in the nose, four .30-caliber wing guns with 4,000 rounds, 177 pounds of armor, and 65 pounds of armor-glass, and a 129-pound radio. Most were requisitioned by the AAF, and 158 similar P-39D-2s were delivered to the AAF and the Soviet Union with V-1710-63 engines.

...
Lend-lease shipments via the Persian Gulf totaled 2,115 P-39s, with 2,020 turned over at Abadan, in Iran, beginning on December 13, 1942. The first were a P-39D-1 and 60 P-39D-2s with 20-mm guns, but the rest all had the 37-mm cannon.

from http://www.americancombatplanes.com/p39_1.html

Conclusion:  Airacobra 138416 is STANDARD P-39D-2 !!!

But photo of this plane:


shows long thin barrel going from propeller - most probably 20mm cannon without muzzle break #1  37mm cannon had much shorter barrel.
Propeller spinner is clearly painted with the color different from Olive Drab or Medium Grey, but very similar to bright color of the red star on the fuselage, although plane crashed on 16-Aug-1943... #2

 

[66misos]

Hi KL,

thank you very, very much for posted documents. I already have them both already
And yes, they write in Technical Manual from 1943 on page 4 that there was 20mm cannon. And at the end of document, where differences between P-39D-2 (Model 14A) and P-39D (Model 14) are described, cannon in not mentioned. Only different amount of ammunition for machine guns.

The misunderstanding results from situation when "D" in P-39 version designation in some sources meant to be main version (like N, Q) and in other sources it meant to be subversion (like D-1, D-2). In this situation sentence "P-39D was armed with 37mm cannon" has two different meanings. Your posts proved which one is true

So yes, it is clear and confirmed now. P-39D-2 flown by Pokryshkin and other pilots in 16th GIAP were armed with 20mm cannon.

Plus they write there that P-39D-2 was equipped with Curtiss-Electric propeller (pictures are here to show propeller appearance, not D versions):
or

Versions K and L were equipped with Aeroproducts propeller (pictures are here to show propeller appearance, not K and L versions):
or

When comparing dimensions and position of the stencils on the both propeller types, Curtiss-Electric stencil is wider and shorter and positioned closer to the propeller blade root than Aeroproducts stencil which is narrower and longer and positioned further from blade root.

So pictures:
and
show:
- propeller spinner with the "big hole" for cannon,
- propeller blade has stencil positioned close to its root.

So in the situation when following options were possible in that time (before Pokryshkin's 1st HSU):
1.) P-39D-2 with Curtiss-Electric propeller and 20mm cannon, or
2.) P-39K-1 with Aeroproducts propeller and 37mm cannon, or
3.) P-39L-1 with Curtiss-Electric propeller and 37mm cannon, or
4.) P-39N with Aeroproducts propeller and 37mm cannon,
pictures above should show Pokryshkin in front of P-39D-2 with 20mm cannon.

KL, thank you again for your help.

Regards,
     66misos

[KL]

Propelers by P-39 types from

http://base13.glasnet.ru/text/p39bakur/p39.htm

Тип Мотор Мощность, лс Чрезвычайная
мощность, лс Винт
P-39D V-1710-35 1150 - Кертисс
P-39D-2 V-1710-63 1325 1550 Кертисс
P-39F V-1710-35 1150 - Аэропроп
P-39K V-1710-63 1325 1550 Аэропроп
P-39L V-1710-63 1325 1550 Кертисс
P-39M V-1710-83 1200 1420 Кертисс
P-39N V-1710-85 1200 1420 Аэропроп
P-39Q V-1710-85 1200 1420 Аэропроп

[66misos]

Hi,
I tried to make a "visual summary" of the second plane flown by Pokryshkin, plane P-39D-2 (Александр Иванович Покрышкин, П-39Д-2 "Аэрокобра", серийный номер 41-38520 (138520), бортовой номер ?130?, Апрель / Май 1943).
Neither this plane is photodocumented with visible board no. together with serial no. Only 2 photos posted yesterday showing Pokryshkin standing in front of some P-39D-2 could represent this plane.

There is only info that there was plane with board no. "130", and that there was a plane with serial no. 138520 and that Pokryshkin flew plane "130" cca twenty times during April-May 1943. Plane S/N: 138520 came to 16th GIAP two weeks after P-39K-1 S/N: 24421.

Putting all that info posted up to date together, camouflage and marking should be very similar or same as on P-39K-1.



Main differences between this P-39D2 and previous P-39K-1 were:
- nose vents are missing now,
- there is 20mm cannon instead of 37mm cannon,
- there is Curtiss-Electric propeller instead of Aeroproducts propeller.

Best regards,
     66misos

[KL]

Hmmm?  
According to Romanenko, Pokrishkin flew this P-39K-1 from April 02 to June 20.  It was then re-numbered to "130" and passed to Samsonov who flew on it til October 1943...
Zlobin posted orig documents showing that Pokrishkin flew "130" in June (before Samsonov?)...




P-39D-2 138520 was comanders plane, Pokrishkin flew it once in April.  From April 24, 1943 it was "personal" plane of P.P. Ketov. It survived till end of 1943...  No tactical Number for this P-39D-2...