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Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"
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Author Topic: Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"  (Read 136899 times)
66misos
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« Reply #90 on: November 23, 2012, 11:23:30 AM »

Hi KL,
I fully agree with you, that "Hmmm Huh" is more than appropriate in this case. Thre is a controversy with this plane.
I browsed again all relevant posts and pages in Tabachenko book for relevant time period with interesting result.

According to Romanenko, Pokrishkin flew this P-39K-1 from April 02 to June 20.  It was then re-numbered to "130" and passed to Samsonov who flew on it til October 1943...
Zlobin posted orig documents showing that Pokrishkin flew "130" in June (before Samsonov?)...
P-39D-2 138520 was comanders plane, Pokrishkin flew it once in April.  From April 24, 1943 it was "personal" plane of P.P. Ketov. It survived till end of 1943...  No tactical Number for this P-39D-2...  


HOWEVER,
this is a shortened part of the article from Suchov?s (pilot in 16 GIAP since May 30, 1943) book Эскадрилья ведет бой about the moment when Pokryshkin exchanged his old ?13? with the new ?100?:
In mid-July ... We stopped by a fighter with the tail number "13". It is well known commander?s plane. Actually his former plane.  "Thirteenth" already did its job?fought many fights, many forsages during hot days. It's time to change the engine...
Nearby is the aircraft... almost new one. To beat "Junkers" and "Heinkels" ? it needs more powerful weapons. And here it is: a 37-millimeter cannon ...
Pokryshkin is weighing the possibility of one and the other plane. He knows "thirteenth", he likes her. Or to take a new one?
Pokryshkin strode towards a new plane.
- Comrade Captain, what number to paint?
- The ?One? has to be for the regiment commander.
- He did not fly, he is "sick" all the time - Sasha Klubov says.
- All the same, is not allowed! - says Pokryshkin.
- Then the ?ten"!
- It is better to "thirty", the number of kills - says Regiment Engineer Captain Kopylov.
Lieutenant Nikolai Trofimov says with a smile:
- We must look forward - to count to one hundred ...
 - Write "hundred"! ? Alexander succumbed to the general mood, too, laughed, waved his hand:
- Okay, if ?one hundred? then ?one hundred?. Paint it!
From that day a new call sign was approved for Pokryshkin: Hundredth ...



...Finally, this I found in the Pokryshkin?s book Небо войны (Sky of War) about replacement his old ?13? with new ?100?:
I flew almost all time on the plane with board number 13 and shot down more than 20 enemy planes. But when new Airacobras with the stronger armament arrived, I decided to take one of them.  Stepanov received my ?13?. He did not want to fly with ?13? so they pained 0 behind 13. He was shot down during the first fight. Now I have also three-digit number on my plane and I have got order not to call with my name because German fighters already hunt me. I try to call with my new number but it was very difficult to pronounce. Boys laugh.
- Paint me hundred! I told them.
- Here hundred, here hundred. Short and clear, isn?t it?
Since that I flew plane with board number ?100?.



...Pokryshkin flew also ?130? on 10-Apr-1943 and 17-Apr-1943 according to the ЖБД (журнал боевых действий ? combat book) of the 16 GIAP:


According to the Tabachenko's book:

8-Apr-1943, P-39K-1, 42-4421 (24421) delivered to 16th GIAP, group of 22 P-39s under command of Isaev flew to the front. Pokryshkin was part of this group. Means that Isaev - commander od 16th GIAP already had his own plane, Pokryshkin flew different plane (most probably 24421). And 138520 had still 2 weeks to come a part of 16th GIAP.

10-Apr-1943 (p.40), 07:48, 6 P-39 (Teterin-Starchikov, Bereznoy-Sapunov, Naumenko-Sutyrin),
                            08:55, 6 P-39 (Pokryshkin-Paskeev, Shagov-Ostrovskij, Kozlov-Golubev),
                            09:55, 5 P-39 (Iskrin, Naumenko, Bereznoj, Sutyrin, Savin)
                            totally used 12 shells 20mm, no 37mm shell.
                            14:30, 12 P-39 (Kryukov, Pokryshkin, Rechkalov, Stepanov, Shagov, Iskrin, Naumenko, Bereznoy, Starchikov, Sapunov, Nikitin, Savin)
                            neither 20mm nor 37mm cannon shell spent,
                            14:50, 4 P-39 (Tabachenko-Mametov, Ostrovskij-Paskeev) - no fight,
                            16:20, 8 P-39 (Fadeyev, Fedorov, Trud, Erchov, Chesnokov, Moiseenko, Gorochov, Efimov) - no fight,
                            16:55, 9 P-39 (Teterin, Iskrin, Naumenko, Rechkalov, Savin, Sapunov, Bereznoy, Nikitin, Starchikov),
                            17:35, 10 P-39 (Pokryshkin, Shulga, Shagov, Isaev, Kryukov, Paskaev, Ostrovskiy, Mametov, Tabachenko, Stepanov)

17-Apr-1943 (p.61), 10:05, 11 P-39 (Pokryshkin-Paskeev, Rechkalov, Tabachenko, Bereznoy, Sapunov, Iskrin, Sutyrin, Fadeev, Trud, Ershov),
                            15:32, 2x6 P-39 (Fadeev-Trud, Mochalov-Savin, Iskrin-Sutyrin and Bereznoy-Sapunov, Rechkalov-Tabachenko, Paskayev-Shagov).

22-Apr-1943 , P-39D-2, 41-38520 (138520) delivered to 16th GIAP. Is it possible that Isaev, commander of 16th GIAP was without his personal plane untill this moment? I am not sure with that.

End of June 1943 - Isaev, commander of 16th GIAP, signed order no.046 to pay reward 5000 rubels to Mayor Pokryshkin for 100 combat flights without aircraft damage, crash and without lost of orientation in the plane P-39 serial no. 24421 during time period from 9-Apr to 20-Jun 1943.

If all that is true, or at least if Tabachenko's book and data in the Combat Book is true, then:
1) 8-Apr-1943, P-39K-1, 42-4421 (24421) delivered 16th GIAP,
2.) 17-Apr-1943 Pokryshkin flew P-39 with the boad no. "130" (photo from Combat Book),
3.) 22-Apr-1943, P-39D-2, 41-38520 (138520) delivered to 16th GIAP.

and then it could mean that Pokryshkin flew P-39K-1 (armed with 37mm cannon), serial no. 42-4421 (24421), board no. "130" on 17-Apr-1943.

And the same plane was most probably flown also on 10-Apr-1943, e.g. repainting "13" to "130" does not look very probably on this plane.
And question is what plane had board no. "13".

P-39D-2, 41-38520 (138520) belonged to the production series 41-38405 / 41-38562 produced in period Feb/Dec 1941, e.g. delivered to the 16th GIAP after about one and half year after produced,
P-39K-1, 42-4421 (24421) belonged to the production series 42-4244 / 42-4453 produced in period Jul/Nov 1942, e.g. delivered to the 16th GIAP after about half of the year after produced (http://www.uswarplanes.net/p39p63.html and http://www.americancombatplanes.com/p39_1.html).

So my previous "visual summary" of P-39 42-4421 (24421) and 41-38520 (138520) seems to be incorrect  and need to be redone Cry

Regards,
     66misos
« Last Edit: November 23, 2012, 05:20:14 PM by 66misos » Logged

66misos
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« Reply #91 on: November 28, 2012, 05:10:53 PM »

Hi,
seems that almost crystal clear things are becoming a bit foggy again.

Info already posted in this thread:
1.)
Quote
Quote from: KL on November 22, 2012, 11:32:01 PM
According to Romanenko, Pokrishkin flew this P-39K-1 from April 02 to June 20.  It was then re-numbered to "130" and passed to Samsonov who flew on it til October 1943...
Zlobin posted orig documents showing that Pokrishkin flew "130" in June (before Samsonov?)...
P-39D-2 138520 was commander's plane, Pokrishkin flew it once in April.  From April 24, 1943 it was "personal" plane of P.P. Ketov. It survived till end of 1943...  No tactical Number for this P-39D-2... 

2.) This is a part of the profile made by Igor Zlobin in the past:

P-39-K, S/N: 24421, board no. 130.
He revised this picture after getting some new info - removed red spinner and tail tip, but "130" kept.

3.) Plane with board no. "130" flown by Pokryshkin since 10-Apr-1943, however no photo-confirmed info about version and serial no. of this P-39.

I checked again Tabachenko's book and found following:
4.) List of 16GIAP technicians with dedicated planes as of 29-Apr-1943 (only 21 planes):

- technician Chuvashkin (P-39K-1 S/N: 24421) should maintain plane of 16GIAP commander (e.g. Isaev),
- technicians Yakovenko (P-39L-1 S/N: 24607) or Putkalyuk (P-39L-1 S/N: 24603) should maintain plane of 16GIAP Deputy/Assistant of commander for VSS (e.g. Pokryshkin), however this is not confirmed.
- list of technicians and planes is in the hierarchy order - the plane P-39D-2 S/N: 138520 is at the very end of that list.

5.) List of 16GIAP pilots as of 22-Jul-1943:


5.) According to the mail from Igor Zlobin technician Chuvashkin maintained Pokryshkin's planes during the whole war.

Did P-39K-1 S/N: 24421 board no. "130" belong to the 16GIAP commander Isaev but regularly flown by Pokryshkin?
Hmmm   Huh

Regards,
     66misos
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66misos
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« Reply #92 on: November 30, 2012, 05:45:39 PM »

Hi,
seems that no other substantial info bringing more lights to the discussion about early P-39s flown by Pokryshkin will come, so I updated pictures already posted in this thread before.

1.) plane P-39D-2, serial no. 138520, picture posted on 22-Nov-2012 (Александр Иванович Покрышкин, П-39Д-2 "Аэрокобра", серийный номер 41-38520 (138520), бортовой номер нет, Апрель 1943).
The follow-up discussion showed that most probably:
- this plane had no board number, or board number is not known,
- Pokryshkin flew this plane probably once or very rarely,
- this plane still was not in 16 GIAP when Pokryshkin already flew P-39 board no. 130,
so it is quite safe to not consider this plane as Pokryshkin's one.

Image & Description updated on 10-Feb-2013.

2.) plane P-39K-1, serial no. 24421, picture posted on 17-Nov-2012 (Александр Иванович Покрышкин, П-39K-1 "Аэрокобра", серийный номер 42-4421 (24421), бортовой номер ?130?, Апрель/Июнь 1943).
The follow-up discussion showed that:
- Pokryshkin flew ?130? during April-May 1943 frequently according to the ЖБД (журнал боевых действий ? combat book) of the 16 GIAP (no serial no. mentioned),
- Pokryshkin get reward 5000 rubels for 100 combat flights without aircraft damage, crash and without lost of orientation in the plane P-39 serial no. 24421 during time period from 9-Apr to 20-Jun 1943 (no board no. mentioned),
- this plane was in 16GIAP together with the first P-39s,
so it is quite safe to consider plane P-39K-1 serial no. 24421 had board no. 130 and was flown by Pokryshkin regularly.

Image & Description updated on 10-Feb-2013.

However, I will by very happy if some post additional evidence confirming or correcting thoughts above.

Regards,
     66misos

« Last Edit: February 10, 2013, 12:44:54 AM by 66misos » Logged

66misos
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« Reply #93 on: December 04, 2012, 04:23:37 PM »

Hi,

Blue circles or not? That is (almost Hamlet's) question.

I visited a Plastic Kit Show last weekend. I met there guys from AML Decals, we discussed Pokryshkin?s  P-39s (numbers, blue circles under the red stars and victory marks Wink) They are quite confident about their interpretation at http://www.aml.cz/index.php/en/2012-04-25-17-22-02/item/119-amlc-8-014:


V. Roman in his book Airacobras over Kuban writes, that there was a big airplane assembling factory in Abadan built by Douglas in line with USAF order.
Red stars painted in Abadan were in line with rules, e.g. with the thin (1cm) black outline. But blue circles were repainted rather sloppy, often with British or Russian paints, which did not match original US Olive Drab and Neutral Grey? So often blue circles were kept, red stars with black outline over them. The planes were flown to 25ZAP in Adji-Kabul after repainting.
But sometimes planes were flown from Abadan to Adji-Kabul with original USAF stars. In such cases the final look of the stars and circles strongly depended on the taste of the 25ZAP technical staff?

Following images, although showing different planes from the different fronts, could serve as good examples of ?circles were repainted rather sloppy, often with British or Russian paints, which did not match original US Olive Drab and Neutral Grey?.

1.) Original US repainting to give P-39 look of the new L-L plane (http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/photogallery/p-39_fairbanks/):
 

2.) Soviet repainting (http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/articles/sheppard/p39/):
 

 

3.) and other P-39 from Finland:
 

4.) Repainting "rather sloppy" was not limited only to P-39s from 25ZAP:
 

 

 

However, low contrast between OD background and circle on the b&w photos does not necessarily mean repainting. Here follow photos showing low contrast also on the original US insignia:
 



Seems following approach could work:
  • 1.) No circle visible ? blue or white circle carefully repainted by Olive Drab and Neutral Grey,
  • 2.) Some low contrast circle visible ? could be either original blue circle kept or repainted. V. Roman in his book Airacobras entering the fight suggests green and blue for RAF roundels repainting. No specific color suggested for US blue circles, only statement that they were kept blue quite often.
  • 3.) (relatively) high contrast ? original blue circle kept.
Regards,
     66misos
« Last Edit: February 10, 2013, 12:34:17 AM by 66misos » Logged

66misos
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« Reply #94 on: December 17, 2012, 03:44:24 PM »

Hi,

this is my interpretation of the next P-39 flown by Pokryshkin - P-39N-0, Serial No. 29004, Board no. 100 (Александр Иванович Покрышкин, П-39H-0 "Аэрокобра", серийный номер 42-9004 (29004), бортовой номер ?100?, Май/Июль 1943):


Image & Description updated on 10-Feb-2013.

This plane was delivered to 16 GIAP on 15-May-1943, only 3 weeks after P-39D-2 S/N: 138520 and month plus something after P-39K-1, S/N: 24421.
Its fate is a bit controversial. It was damaged at the end of July or beginning of August 1943 (depends on sources) and written off from 16GIAP. Then it served as a training plane in the different unit until 1944 and destroyed after the war (again depends on sources). Anyhow, Pokryshkin did not use it after it damaging.

The profile is based on the only known photo showing both serial and board number:


The photo does not provide answer for question whether there were blue circles under the red stars or not. It only shows that red stars did not have white outline when plane was photographed.
But it shows also black propeller blades with the producer logo and bright (e.g. yellow) stencils (and so with yellow tips).
Here http://www.airaces.narod.ru/all2/babak.htm are the only photos of the P-39 with the similar serial no. I was able to find:

It is P-39N-0, S/N: 29033, flown by Babak and latter by Dolnikov. However it is retouched too much.

I decided for red stars without (e.g. overpainted) blue circles. It was more common to overpaint them at the beginning - see my previous mail.


The close inspection of the original photo shows details that provoke more questions than answers and brings us to the beginning of this thread:

- does this photo show plane undergoing repair after the damage on July/august 1943? See supporting construction and missing cover of the left main landing gear.
- is the tail tip of the different color than basic camo (OD)?
- is the propeller spinner of the different color than basic camo (OD)?
- what is that regular pattern visible on the left front fuselage? Optical illusion, or victory stars or what?
- was that still Pokryshkin's plane when photographed?
I do not know, but just from curiosity, I made also this picture (А. И. Покрышкин?, П-39H-0 "Аэрокобра", серийный номер 42-9004 (29004), бортовой номер ?100?, осень 1943?):



Just a note. Victory stars during Kuban campaign were not nonsense in general. V. Roman in his book Aircobras over Kuban has 3 photos of P-39s decorated with victory stars:


Р-39К (S/N: 42-4401), 45 IAP, 2 victory stars оn the nose.


Р-39К-1 (S/N: 42-4420), 298 IAP, before 29 September 1943


P-39L-1, 298 IAP, Kuban, Korenovskaya airfield, April 1943

My personal vote if I go to build Pokryshkin's "100"? After all that discussions posted in this thread I vote for "100" with the same appearance as "13". Although I would like to see it more colorfull - with red spinner and tail tip and victory stars Wink And may be with blue circles under the stars.

Regards,
     66misos
« Last Edit: February 10, 2013, 12:32:45 AM by 66misos » Logged

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« Reply #95 on: January 03, 2013, 11:19:51 AM »

Hi,

I found a short COLOR video "featuring" P-39 in VVS on Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HeFlN7TS3Vk

I made several screenshots from that video:

Here are some notes:
Pict 1 - nose vents on the both fuselage sides are visible - applicable from P-39K version,
Pict 1+6  -37mm cannon without cover,
Pict 2 - big repainted (darker) area below and behind exhaust pipes,
Pict 2+3 - original US star on the right under wing repainted - see glossy area,
Pict 4+5+6 - old "balloon type" front landing gear, appliable until P-39K. P-39L and latter had tire of thinner profile,
Pict 4+5+6 - grey propeller blades without logo and stencils - could be Aeroproducts propeller,
Pict 5 - red star without white outline on the fuselage and without original blue or white circle,
Pict 5+6 - external 75 gallons fuel tank under the central fuselage,
Pict 5+3 - short 5-digits serial number, something like 24??0 or 24??8 - applicable for series from P-39K-1 (S/N: 24244) to P-39N (S/N: 24999).

All that together point most probably on early P-39K-1.

And here is another "early" P-39 with red star without white outline on the fuselage:

Original blue or white circle is repainted - see more rounded pentagon than circle under the red star. Red star is quite glossy in comparison with Matt Olive Drab.
Note old "balloon type" front landing gear of P-39 standing behind.

Both pictures again show early P-39s with "boring" camouflage of that days (1943) - original Olive Drab + Medium Grey plus red stars without blue/white circles. Nothing like colorfull, personalized and highly decorated P-39Qs from 1945.

Regards,
     66misos
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« Reply #96 on: January 09, 2013, 06:37:44 PM »

Hi,

I have a new book - Bell P-39 Airacobra from AJ Press. There is a lot of interesting info. I tried to put them into table(s) and combine them with other info already posted in this thread or found on Internet in the meantime.

This table shows dates when particular (main) version (e.i. D,K,N...) and subversions (D-1, D-2, K-1, N-0,...) were produced. Data are from the book above.
Based on that I calculated average quantity of particular version per month.

Real numbers most probably differed from month to month, but it is good enough for general feeling.

This table shows estimated dates of production for particular Serial Numbers based on the average values from table above.

Several very interesting outcomes appears:

1.) Time from Production to arrival to 16th GIAP took several months -cca 1 year at the beginning, 5-6 months latter.

2.) First P-39D and P-39K were not new planes, most probably reused ones.

4.) Red stars with white outline could appear on some P-39N-5 earliest if technical personnel was fast enough.
     However here are examples when even latter versions had red stars with old black outline:

    
     P-39Q-10   S/N: 220561 (42-20561), produced sometimes in Aug 1943.
No white star is visible on the fuselage, e.g. there could be VVS red star. Something like red star is visible on the left underwing. If it is correct, then plane delivered to VVS sometime in 1944 still has stars of old type.

    
     P-39Q-5    S/N: 220136 (42-20136), produced sometimes on July 1943, e.g. delivered do VVS sometimes in Dec 1943 and still has stars of old type

5.)
     P-39Q-1-BE    S/N: 219483 (42-19483), produced sometimes on May 1943 - wearing old USAAF insignias,

USAAF introduced new insignias - White rectangle or bar was added on each side of the blue circle with a red border surrounding the entire insignia on June 29, 1943 and updated on Aug. 14, 1943 - red border was replaced with blue one.

6.)
     P-39Q-1BE    S/N: 219447 (42-19447), produced sometimes on May 1943, but here photographed on July 1943 and already waring new USAAF insignias (red outline),

7.)
     P-39Q-5-BE   S/N: 220397 (42-20397), produced sometimes on August 1943 and already wearing new USAAF insignias.

P-39s delivered to VVS via L-L program had several types of national marking:
a.) "Buffalo" version - red stars in white circles (either new one or repainted before-or-after-July-1943-USAAF-marking),
b.) original old USAAF national marking - white star in blue circles for P-39s produced/shipped until July 1943 - applicable for P-39 versions up to Q-1
c.) original new USAAF national marking - white star in blue circles with white bar on sides with red/blue outline for P-39s produced/shipped after July 1943 - applicable for P-39 versions Q-5 and latter.
d.) original RAF marking.

Finally there is an outcome no. 8 - several possibilities of national insignias:
- Scenario 1 - P-39 of all versions - Red stars in white circles - white circles are not repainted - well known Suchov's "50",

- Scenario 2 - P-39 of all versions - Red stars in white circles - white circles are repainted Olive Drab or some Russian green,

- Scenario 3 - P-39 versions from D-2 to Q-1 - Original old USAAF insignias - white stars in blue circles - not repainted:
 
Rechkalov's P-39N-0 s/n 42-8747


- Scenario 4 - P-39 versions from D-2 to Q-1 - Original old USAAF insignias - white stars in blue circles - blue circles is repainted Olive Drab or some Russian green,

- Scenario 5 - P-39Q-5 and latter - Original new USAAF insignias - white star in blue circles with white bar on sides with red/blue outline. I have not seen a photo showing repainted only white bars on sides of blue circle while circle leaving blue. It always looks like original insignias overpainted completely with OD or some Russian green:

Rechaklov's P-39Q-15 s/n 44-2547


If Scenario 5 is correct and reflects usual approach of the VVS technicians (not to complicate thing if not necessary) then a lot of late P-39s (versions Q-10,15,20...) profiles is incorrect. They should show planes with new USAAF insignias completely repainted (or at least side bars) with OD or some Russian green. But they should not show old USAAF insignias (blue circles) on P-39s produced after July/August 1943.

Regards,
     66Miss
« Last Edit: January 10, 2013, 09:52:05 AM by 66misos » Logged

Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #97 on: January 09, 2013, 06:47:51 PM »

Hi Misos,
is there photographic evidence of P-39s with repainted side bars?
Regards
Massimo
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AC26
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« Reply #98 on: January 09, 2013, 06:58:49 PM »

is there photographic evidence of P-39s with repainted side bars?
Hello Massimo,

Hyryl? P-39Q-15 "26" has them overpainted.

Cheers,

AaCee
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66misos
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« Reply #99 on: January 09, 2013, 07:53:08 PM »

Hi Massimo,
I do not know about photo showing overpainted only side bars. I do not know about such evidence.

Hi AaCee,
that P-39 from Hyryia looks like one of Scenarios described in my previous post - original new USAAF insignia (e.g. with side bars) repainted still in US to "Buffalo" style (e.g. Red star in white circle) and latter repainted in VVS (unknown Russian greenish paint) to look like 1944 and latter standard soviet insignia.

regards,
    66misos

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AC26
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« Reply #100 on: January 09, 2013, 09:58:21 PM »

that P-39 from Hyryia looks like one of Scenarios described in my previous post - original new USAAF insignia (e.g. with side bars) repainted still in US to "Buffalo" style (e.g. Red star in white circle) and latter repainted in VVS (unknown Russian greenish paint) to look like 1944 and latter standard soviet insignia.
Hi Misos,

Exactly like this. On the fuselage white circles it might well be the standard Soviet dark green camouflage colour. Undersurfaces are lighter greyish green.

Cheers,

AaCee
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66misos
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« Reply #101 on: January 10, 2013, 09:57:04 AM »

Hi,

I just repaired links to photos. There were typos after spellchecker - changes applied by a mistake  Sad

Regards,
     66misos
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« Reply #102 on: January 28, 2013, 01:41:35 PM »

Hi,

here is the fourth plane flown (or could be flown) by Pokryshkin - P-39N-5, serial no. 219158, board no. "100" from winter 1943 (Александр Иванович Покрышкин?, П-39H-5 "Аэрокобра", серийный номер 42-19158 (219158), бортовой номер ?100?, зима 1943):


However, this profile is quite hypothetical, there is no known direct evidence about it. So this profile is based on the indirect info and analogies.

I have info about this P-39 from Igor Zlobin. When I asked him via email where he has info about S/N: 219158 from, he replied:
?Information about this number (e.g. S/N: 219158) is from historian Levchenko. He refers to the order he found in the archives and according to which aircraft technician Chuvashkin, was awarded. As it is known Chuvashkin maintained Pokryshkin?s planes throughout the war. Order for awarding is for time period autumn 1943. I have no other information.?
Unfortunately I did not find any info about it in Tabachenko's book.

Other P-39N-5 with similar serial numbers (218691, 219052 and 219098) arrived to 16th GIAP on the end of September 1943.
Red star with white & red outline since 3-Sep-1943 (Order NKO no.267).
Red propeller spinner & red tail tip in 16th GIAP since autumn 1943.

Red stars positions are based on these photos:

and

We can see that there were no "transport marking" e.g. red stars in white circles on upperwing. Even existing USAAF marking were painted out. So at least during some time period Bell or someone else in US payed attention to carefully painted out standard USAAF stars.

These photos shows red stars on the upperwing:




Red spinner and red tail tip with thin white stripe is based on this photo:

Of course, there in no visible number on that plane and also red star on the fuselage is missing on the typical position - rough retouch Huh
On the other side, it is "some" P-39 with Pokryshkin in winter, grey of the propeller spinner is different from the grey of the fuselage (red vs. OD) and there is a thin white strip on the tail tip (green arrows). Also ruder hinge is visible (blue arrow) while no serial no. is visible. Again, retouch? I do not know.

But there is (almost) nothing easy and clear with VVS camo & marking. Here are examples showing "different approach" than described above:
1.) Rough USAF stars repainting:


2.) "old type" star on even newer P-39Q-5, S/N: 220136:


3.) missing divisional symbols - this plane belongs to Dmitri Glinka from 100 GvIAP, note that the regiment belongs to 9th GvIAD and was supposed to have the symbol on the tail and spinner, but it had not:


Regards,
     66misos

« Last Edit: January 28, 2013, 04:35:44 PM by 66misos » Logged

66misos
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Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.


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« Reply #103 on: February 01, 2013, 12:28:46 PM »

Hi,
here are some photos helping answer the question whether red tail tip on (Pokryshkin's) P-39N-5, serial no. 219158, (board no. "100") was with or without thin white trim. Of course following photos do not show this particular aircraft but prove that white trim was not so exceptional in 16GIAP:

1.) Pokryshkin in front of unknown P-39, probably just before the flight on "his" Cobra. As usuall in such cases, no number helping identify his plane is visible ( retouched ?):


2.) Rechkalov's P-39 when photographed with Pokryshkin in:


3.) Pokryshkin, B.B.Glinka (shot down on 14-Jul-1944, did not fly anymore), Rechkalov, Klubov (died on 1-Nov-1944 in La-7 accident) and some others:


4.) Klubov's P-39:


5.) Suchov's P-39 flown by Pokryshkin during "highway exercise":


6.) unknown P-39 (version N or earlier - see wing guns) from document movie about Pokryshkin:


Based on the photos above I would say that if there was a red tail tip then there was also thin white trim on P-39s in 16GIAP.

And based on the photos above and the following photo (photographed in USA, e.g. no reason for red tail tip):


I would also say that P-39 S/N: 29004 (42-9004), board number ?100? is without red tail tip on this photo:

It is (most probably) only a light reflection, same as on the US P-39 on the photo above, also with the dark fuzzy trim - panel line.

Regards,
     66misos



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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #104 on: February 02, 2013, 07:04:30 AM »

Hi Misos, hi all,


Nice image. Any considerations about the camouflage?

Quote
http://And based on the photos above and the following photo (photographed in USA, e.g. no reason for red tail tip):
Is this confirmed by other photos? The light seems too sharp, and it's not a fabric-covered part where it could be caused by an internal strut. Maybe the plane had a colored tip anyway?
Regards
Massimo
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