Victory marks on Pokryshkin's P-39 "100"

[66misos]

Hi Massimo,
let me answer your questions:

Is this confirmed by other photos? The light seems too sharp, and it's not a fabric-covered part where it could be caused by an internal strut. Maybe the plane had a colored tip anyway?

Here are some photos showing tail tip of a slightly different color than the rest of the tail - regardless date and region. It seems to be a matter of light reflection:









Photos in my post above about red tail tip show that if there was a red tail tip then (most probably) also thin white trim was there. And there is no white trim on this picture:

Moreover, red tail tip was introduced after red stars with white+red outline. And there are no red stars with white+red outline visible on this picture (white is here quite apparent).


Regards,
     66misos

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi Misos and KL,
I've moved the discussion on Suchov's plane and the last posts on AMT-4 to another topic.
Regards
Massimo

[66misos]

Hi,
I would like to add couple of thoughts about question - were red stars on the upper wings or not? - based on info and photos found mainly on internet. Any info correcting or confirming that is more than welcome.

I do not have exact statistics about exact number of P-39 produced from the first moment for VVS vs. modified/repainted P-39 produced for USAF and subsequently delivered to VVS. Here are some interesting points from scalemodels.ru at http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic_t_17216.html:

Why there is such confidence that USAF marking on P-39s were repainted in Soviet Union? On Airforce.ru there is a photo photo machine, which did not leave United States and there is clearly seen that USAF marking was repainted several times, according to the several times changed USAF rules http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/photogallery/p-39_fairbanks/index.htm
In my opinion, discussions about Soviet national marking painted in the VVS units with "what found on the shelf" are the same legends as "tractor green". This is true only for British Hurricanes and Hempdens in the North, delivered to SU by completely other ways, not within the lend-lease. And then, together with the planes were delivered such things like "ЗИП" (ZIP?), which includes also a "native" paint.
   vs.
Paints were not included in ZIP and they painted with what they had.

I think there could be considered several scenarios:

Scenario 1 ? P-39s coming to SU with ?Bell? transport marking ? red stars in white circles:
- new P-39s - red stars in white circles painted already in the factory ? on both under wings and fuselage, and no upper wings, or
- Repainted existing USAF stars ? red stars in white circles carefully painted over original USAF national marking on left&right underwings and fuselage and USAF nat. marking overpainted with Olive Drab on upperwings.



1.1.  White circles kept and no red stars added to upper wings (e.g. Sukhov's P-39):


or

1.2. Standard Soviet red stars were painted on the upperwing without visible darker (green or blue) circle bellow:



Scenario 2 ? standard USAF national marking:
overpainted either in USA or in CCCP:

2.1. Red stars painted in blue circles and additional red star painted on right upperwing and left underwing, while blue circles overpainted with paints available at that moment ? if in Abadan then probably most often with OD delivered together with the planes. If not available, then (either British or) Russian paints. In already in individual IAP/GIAP then most probably with available Russian paints:


2.2. Red stars painted in blue circles and additional red star painted on right upperwing and left underwing, while blue circles kept:


The question is whether those dark circles are really original blue circles or those dark circles are fresh careful green overpaintings. Soviet "field" overpaintings are known more by its usually rough way http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1367.msg10588#msg10588

Although VVS is military organization and everything is/should be done by order (defining what, when and how has to be done), photos in this post and basically in all thread show a wide variability in such orders implementation.
Again, basically everything seems to be possible unless photo of the particular plane does not clearly show/prove something

Regards,
     66misos

[66misos]

Hi,
here are quotations from Sukhov's book "Eskadrilja vedet boj" about Pokryshkin:

1st August 1943
Pokryshkin?s P-39 S/N: 29004 damaged by Il-2 and written off.

5th August 1943
В"ылетаем шестеркой. В паре с Александром Ивановичем идет Жора Голубев. Во второй паре ? лейтенант Александр Клубов и старший лейтенант Александр Самсонов. Я иду ведомым у младшего лейтенанта Виктора Жердева.
? Я ? Сотый! Разворот влево сто двадцать?
Переключаюсь на передачу, кричу:
? Сотый! Бомберы?"
We fly in six. Golubev in pair with Pokryshkin, 2nd pair Klubov and Samsonov, I (Sukhov) fly with Zherdev.
- Here is Hundredth, turn left 120...
I am switching radio to reply and shouting:
- Hundredth! Bombers..

13th August 1943
"Вылетаем четверкой, ? поясняет Александр Иванович... мы с Голубевым будем на высоте девять тысяч метров; Жердев.и Сухов ? на тысячу метров выше нас и на километр в стороне?
?Сотка? тем временем, выполнив разворот, идет уже параллельным ?юнкерсу? курсом?"
- We fly in six, - explains Alexander Ivanovich (Pokryshkin)... me and Golubev will be on altitude 9000...
?Hundred? finishing turn goes towards the Junkers...

21st August 1943
взлетаем?Впереди хорошо вижу ?сотку? Покрышкина.
we take off... I clearly see Pokryshkin?s ?100? in the front...

Жердев четко увидел на его борту цифру ?100?. Что такое? Командир ? без прикрытия! А где же ведомый?..
Zherdev clearly saw number ?100? on his plane - Commander without covering? Where is his wingman? 
Боевой порядок ? ?этажерка?, одна четверка ? ударная, вторая ? прикрытие. Ведет группу Александр Иванович Покрышкин.
Flying formation ? ?etazherka?, the first four planes attacking, the second four planes covering. Group is leading by Pokryshkin.

2nd September 1943
вылетела наша шестерка. Мы с Жердевым ? во второй паре. Ведущий ? Александр Иванович Покрышкин.
Our six took off. Me (Sukhov) with Zherdev in the second pair. Leader ? Pokryshkin.

20th September 1943
подошли к реке Молочной. Вот она, пресловутая линия ?Вотан?!  ? Прошло еще несколько дней??Сотка? зарулила на стоянку, двигатель затих. Открылась дверца, Александр Иванович ступил на крыло?
we advanced to the river Molochnoy ? well known line ?Votan?... Several day gone. ?Hundred? taxied to the parking lot, engine stopped. Door (on the plane) opens, Alexander Ivanovich (Pokryshkin) steps on the wing...


And here Tabachenko quotes from Pokryshkin?s book ?Познать себя в бою" ("Poznat seba v boju?):

Февраль 1945...Вылетаю парой на боевых самолетах... Под нами Аслау... Связываюсь по радио с передовой командой, слышу: Сотый, грунтовая полоса раскисла, непригодная для посадки...
February 1945 ... I (e.g. Pokryshkin) fly in a pair of fighter planes... Aslan below us... I communicate via radio with the front (advanced) command, I hear - Hundredth, landing strip is not suitable for landing...

Просто военные кинооператоры снимали прославленного авиационного полковника - комдива на фоне именно этого самолета (видимо, хотели показать в кадре множество звезд - отметок о воздушных побeдах)... Но на этой машине только иногда летал Алекцандр Покрышкин (но праву комдива все самолеты авиасоединения - его), а Григирий Речкалов как полновластный хозяин самолета, на нем не только успешно воевал, но и закончил воину.
Simply war cameramen filmed famous airforce colonel - division commander - in this plane (apparently they wanted to show a lot of little stars - symbols of victories)... But Alexandr Pokryshkin flew on this plane only occasionally (all planes in the unit "belongs" to division commander), and Grigorij Rechkalov as absolute master(?) of this aircraft, not only successfully fought on it, but also finished the war.

If all that is true, IMHO it shows:
1.) Pokryshkin had another P-39 "100" after his P-39 "100" S/N: 29004 was written off. But what S/N? 42-19158?
2.) Pokryshkin had ho victory stars on his P-39.

Regards,
     66misos

[66misos]

Hi,

I wrote at http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1367.msg11014#msg11014 on January 28:
 

  ?...Information about this number (e.g. S/N: 219158) is from historian Levchenko. He refers to the order he found in the archives and according to which aircraft technician Chuvashkin, was awarded. As it is known Chuvashkin maintained Pokryshkin?s planes throughout the war. Order for awarding is for time period autumn 1943. I have no other information.?
Unfortunately I did not find any info about it in Tabachenko's book.

I browsed again in Tabachenko's book looking for info about Sukhov and I found this (pg. 252) - Grigory Chuvashkin, technician of Pokryshkin's plane, was awarded on November 6, 1943, because he successfully prepared plane for 158 flights, while, as written in the 16GIAP documents, "pilot on the plane "Aircobra" which was maintained by Chuvashkin shot down 16 enemy planes, while 5 of them were shot down during the battle of Melitopol.

Pokryshkin's P-39 S/N: 219158 seems to be more and more real.

regards,
     66misos

[66misos]

Hi,

I found this in the book "Triumf a tragedie. Sovietsti stihaci letci v bojich II. svetove valky." (Triumph and tragedy. Soviet fighter pilots during WWII.), authors Milos Sedivy a Valerij Dymich:

"No machine Bell P-39 did not survive in Russia. Even A.I. Pokryshkin's popular "Sotka", which was damaged during a training flight in 1947 and ended in soviet melting furnace."

Interesting info. One "Sotka" was damaged in summer 1943 by Il-2 during landing. Another "Sotka" survived WWII and was damaged and destroyed latter.

Regards,
    66misos

[66misos]

Hi,

I found today at http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic_p_903692.html#903692 link to the interesting photo of Pokryshkin standing on the P-39 with 30 victory marks:



Accorging to http://www.airaces.narod.ru/all1/pokrish1.htm
- Pokryshkin was awarded the 1st HSU on 24-May-1943,
- Pokryshkin achieved 30 victories on 23-Aug-1943.

Could anybody identify Pokryshkin's military rank on this photo? According to the http://www.militaryimages.net/photopost/army/p9220-russian-army-ranks-ww2.html it looks like Captian. He was  promoted to Major in June 1943.

Unfortunately (again) neither serial number nor board number is visible.
Victory stars - first 6 on top line seems to be fully painted, the rest seems to be only white stencils sprayed over mask.
Red star without darker (blue or green) circle background is visible on the left upperwing. Not sure whether I see there also white outline (introduced on 3-Sep-1943 by Order NKO no.267)
Vents on the nose fuselage show on version K or latter.
Propeller spinner seems to be brighter (red?) than fuselage, blades seems to be silver/grey, not black, 30mm cannon with cover.

I am curious about discussion on scalemodels.ru about this photo.

Regards,
    66misos

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi Misos,
it's captain: two horizontally-aligned stars, two vertically aligned ones, and the winged prop.
Very clean photo.
Regards
Massimo

[Dark Green Man]

those vents on the nose make it an M N or Q
off the top of my head I can't recall how many M's were received by the soviets,
but they got a lot of N's and Q's

[learstang]

Interesting.  It looks like the port .50 calibre gun has a blast tube (I would suspect that the starboard gun had one as well).  Were these present when the 37mm cannon had the blast tube?

Regards,

Jason

[66misos]

Hi,
here are some points from discussion at http://vif2ne.ru/nvi/forum/0/0.htm from Aug 19-20, and 21-30, 2013 about the photo above. All 3 pictures bellow were posted by Igor Zlobin at that forum.

When photographed?
Photo was published on June 5, 1943 in the central VVS newspaper ?Stalin's Falcons?. Text under the photo stated that there is Pokryshkin on the Cobra with 31 (25+6) victories in three rows of ten stars + 1 star below, all located between the nose and the cockpit,
vs.
according to the other sources Pokryshkin won his 30th victory on May 14 and 31st victory on May 29, 1943. And on May 31, 1943 he already had officially 32 (26+6) victories.

What plane?
Either P-39M, or one of the six P-39N-0/N-1 (S/N: 29004 included) that arrived to 16GIAP on May 15, 1943.







IgorZ: When comparing photos of P-39 with Pokryshkin and P-39 ?100?:
 - propeller blades are in the same position,
 - the window glass of left door is missing (open).
 - tip of the tree or shrub is visible through the back canopy glass on photo of P-39 with Pokryshkin is tip of the bushes or young trees masking the right wing visible on the photo of P-39 ?100?.
Both photos were made during one photo session and show the same plane.

ValeryR: I do not argue that it is the same plane (I'm leaning toward the 90% probability), but:
 - photo of P-39 with Pokryshkin ? plane is perfectly clean (brand new) with no exhaust stains,
 - photo of P-39 "100" ? evident exhaust stains behind the third exhaust pipe,
                                 ? branches with leaves, which are not at the photo of P-39 with Pokryshkin,
                                 ? total number of wins is not visible here. Picture made probably before the end of June.
The images vary in time, place and photographer.

Regards,
     66misos

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi Misos,
the angulation of the propeller isn't exactly the same. The shadows of the exhaust pipes are slightly different. Probably it's the same plane, but not in the same time.
Regards
Massimo

[66misos]

Hi,
here are profiles based on photos above:

Upper profile shows probably Pokryshkin's plane (see my post from October 07, 2013) how it looked at the end of May 1943.
Bottom profile shows the same plane how it could look at the end of July 1943.

There is interesting coincidence with this photo:

where six apparent blotches are visible exactly where one would expect six red-white outlined victory stars. White stencils style stars are not so apparent, but some blotches are also visible.

Regards,
    66misos

[KL]

Hi Misos,
IMHO, Zlobin's proposal is more credible - both photos were taken at the end of May 1943.

Photo of the plane with its nose raised is obviously retouched:  wheels are "enhanced", white reflections are added on tailfin leading edge, on cockpit canopy and on exhausts.  Stain behind exhausts could be a retouch too.

It looks to me that victory stars are not outlined in white; more likely they are yellow.  Victory stars shouldn't be confused with VVS markings which never had yellow outline.

Anyway, at the end, thanks to this new photo, your proposal that Poroshkin's Airacobra No "100" had victory stars turned out to be true.   

Cheers,
KL

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi Misos,
any update for your web page?
Regards
Massimo