Il-2 red 8 with mottles

[Massimo Tessitori]

Many photos of downed Il-2s show some planes having unusual characteristics in common:

-camo improved by mottling with at least one lighter color, possibly light brown AMT-1 or similar;

-wooden rear fuselage reinforced with external stiffeners that appear unpainted, or painted with a different color of the background;

-a white oblique band on the tail, or remains of a white oblique band obliterated with paint:

- a red (?) number with white outline on the tail.

Although the place and date of these photos of German origin are unknown, we cannote the resemblance of those planes to ?Za Otradnova? (?For Otradnov?), ?yellow 3? Pilot A.V.Chuvikov,

of 606 ShAP of 214 ShAD.

Thanks to Aleksandr Ruchkosky for photos and informations









The rear fuselage is clearly mottled with light (brown?) paint, but highlighting the tail, we can see that appears mottled with a color that is darker than that of the fuselage mottles, but slightly lighter than the green. a band of such color appears overposed to the previous green/black camo on the right wingroot. Being very similar in darkness to the previous green, to obtain a camo effect it has to be different in hue, and this suggests the use of a darker brown, possibly AMT-1 mixed with some black or green.

On the left side of the tail we see a sort of triangle that could be a remain of an obliterated white oblique band; on the right side of the tail, only a small rectangle of such light color is visible, it seems to have been masked by the presence of a lock for the rudder when the tail was repainted.

The type of wing is uncertain: the remains of green/black camo seem to suggest the style of Z.18, and the damage of the bended tip suggests a metallic wing; on the other hand we don't see the balances at the wingtips, but they could have been broken during the crash landing.

The shape of the ammo hatches suggest the wing of late 1941 equipped with VYa-23 guns, but the typical fairing on the leading edge is not visible; it could have been lost during the crash, or maybe the plane was armed with 20 mm ShVAK although in the wing tipically used for the other weapon.




Any comments?

Jason, this drawing must replace one that I had already sent long ago. I'll send it in higher resolution as soon as I read the comments and eventual corrections.

Regards
Massimo

[learstang]

Very interesting Shturmovik, Massimo!  I agree that the wings appear to be metal - the absence of the small wingtip projections is probably due to German souvenir-hunters; I've seen photographs of some that were bent in an apparent attempt to remove them.  The same thing with the cannon fairings - these were detachable.  Looking at the length of the cannon barrel, that appears to be a 23mm cannon to me.  This doesn't have the VV-1 gunsight, although if you look at photograph number four, it almost looks like there's an aiming line on the cowling.  I do notice that the intake filter is missing.  I don't think this was stolen, but that the aeroplane predates the addition of this feature (it was fitted and retro-fitted from mid-1942 onwards).  Didn't some early GPW Pe-2's also have AMT-1 used on them?  If I remember correctly, AMT-1 was available early in the GPW, even if it wasn't a "standard" colour like A-14, AMT-6, AMT-4, etc.

Regards,

Jason

[FPSOlkor]

I'd say that a triangle under 8 is a hole in skinning, through which you can see unpainted inner side of the opposite skin and some terrain beyond.

[B_Realistic]

That's a very interesting and odd looking camo.
I think that I'm going to do another Il-2.
Thanks Massimo.

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi Jason,
you are right, I think to see an aiming line.
I think the same thing about the AMT-1. I wonder what is related to unassigned numbers as AMT-2,3,5 etc.

Hi Oleg,
I don't think it's a hole in the skinning, one should see the inner structures.  What we see doesn't seem part of the background, and the fifth photo, from the right side, shows that the skinning on this side was already missing when the one on the left still hadn't any triangular hole there, but only in correspondance to the removed red star.
On next days I'll show photos of similar planes with oblique white band on their tail.

Hi Michel,
yes, it's one of the nicest Shturmoviks.

Regards
Massimo

[FPSOlkor]

I still believe that it is a hole - it seems that the hole itself is between stringers of the rudder, and photo just above should be more thoroughly examined - i believe that there is a hole too. About inner skin - my mistake.

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi Oleg,
the stringers divide the rudder in 8 parts of equal height. The triangle is higher than 1/8 of the rudder, so it can't be that none stringer is visible.
Regards
Massimo

[FPSOlkor]

Once again - no possibility of direct download - or i would have drawn what i meant

[KL]

Hi Massimo,
this is an interesting exercise...  but, I wouldn't include this interpretation in any Il-2 book or any web page about Soviet WWII colors and camouflage schemes...  

The main reason why:  your interpretation is pure guesswork...

-  Nothing is known about these "mottled" Il-2s (who, what unit, when, where???)
-  What is the purpose of those fuselage mottles???
-  Why fuselage only?  why not the wings???
-  Any references for this "mottled camouflage" scheme???  AFAIK, nobody mentioned/studied it before (in techn literature/memoirs/research)...
-  Why AMT-1???  AFAIK AMT-1 was produced from 1943...

I wouldn't waste time and effort on cases like this.  Unless you find answers on some of the questions above, your guess is not any better than Pilawskii's interpretation (mud camouflage applied by bored German infantrymen/photographers)....

HTH,
KL

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi Konstantin,
I am always interested in unusual camouflages, so I will continue anyway.
Readers are warned what is hypothetical, and what is sure enough.
The purpose of mottles on a part of the plane only is to improve the camo effect at long distance. An uniform mottling is less effective because, from very far, the plane looks uniform and don't break the shape enough.
At present time, there are not references, but it's likely that it was applied at unit level. There is an hypothesis on the unit based on similarities that will be seen better in the future. Anyway, even if the identification of the unit is uncertain, one can use the camo for a model all the same, if he wants and if he accepts the risk of a partial guesswork.
For what I know, AMT-1 was formulated in 1941, and it's likely that it was in production before being included in standard camouflage. Else, how could them have painted the AMT-1 bands on the Yak-1 that was proposed for evaluation in early 1943?
Anyway, if the color of the spots was not AMT-1, it could be something similar from another source. If anyone has other suggestions, he can propose them.
EP has often traced his old drawings without supporting them with any document, and such documents didn't emerge not ever in the following years. Please, avoid any parallel between me and EP because it's offensive, in particular if done by you that have regularly defined him in the worst ways.
Regards
Massimo

[B_Realistic]

It's intriging to see the profiles and discussion about odd looking camo Il-2's.
But can you make a 100% correct model with the correct camo?
I've got discussions with a team member over the same issue about Me-109's several years ago.
He did stop building Me-109's because he was frustrated by the fact that the colors weren't exactly the same match they produce by Tamiya, Gunze or Humbrol. And let me say that he had great, sharp detailed pictures from Me-109's.
Nevertheless that you would expect that German aircraft had standard colors. Later in the war you also notice differencies.
My conclusion is that you always have a margin of error.
@Massimo for me I just love odd camo shemes and your profiles.

[KL]

Hi Massimo/B_Realistic,
This is all OK, modeling is a hobby and it should be fun.  If you enjoy drawing/modeling unusual subjects, keep on.

Although my primary interest are correct/historically true colours and camouflage practices, I am finding the most interesting stories about people and events of those extraordinary times.  Translated in modeling, I would prefer to see more models finished in correct colours and camouflage schemes, models of real planes related to real people and events.  Models that represent "generic" planes are considered "poorly researched"...

"What if..." models are also OK.  Those can be used to test hypothesis - someone could make black/green Il-2 with light brown mottles to test how useful that scheme would be in reality.

Happy modeling,
KL

[learstang]

There's certainly nothing wrong with doing a "boring" standard-camouflaged profile or model, Konstantin.  I know that I, as a modeller, often enjoy doing the unusually-painted scheme, however, as long as there is some documentation to back it up.  As a modeller, I've done both types.  At least some of the Il-2 profiles that Massimo is doing are going to end up in my book, which will have both "generic" and unusually-painted Shturmoviks represented.  Thankfully no what-if's, however (no Shturmoviks in U.S. markings, for instance, and certainly no brown/green examples!).

Regards,

Jason

[B_Realistic]

Konstantin,

that's the reason that I joined this forum.
When I displayed my I-16 and Yak-3 I thought I had the right colors.
But now my Il-2 from Borodin will be much better due to the help of you all.
But on the other hand those odd looking camo's on the Il-2's are just great in profiling them.
Altough that there is some guesswork involved.

Michel