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Author Topic: Other bad painting  (Read 11681 times)
Massimo Tessitori
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« on: September 08, 2012, 06:55:32 AM »



Here are some images of a derelict Il-2 in the summer of 1941.

The plane is of very early type, probably with metallic fuselage, as one can think comparing the lighter shade of the blue (A-18f) utilized on the metallic fuselage, with the slightly darker shade of AII light blue, utilized to paint the rear fuselage undersurface of the plane n.10 on the background, undoubtedly wooden as revealed by the rectangular sripped part on its rear back.

Besides, horizontal equally-spaced shadows on the stabilizator suggest the lines of rivets, bending the metal sheet.

Some characteristics of the very early planes were the lack of armour on the upper side of the canopy, the lack of the sheet that covers the upper part of the gap between spinner and engine cowling, the early type wing with balances to tips and ailerons, the 20 mm ShVAK guns and the landing light on both wings.

The camouflage is absolutely strange; the use of at least 3 colors is evident from the tail.

One can suppose that at least two colors were added on the background painted with A-19f green: a darker shade, probably black, and a lighter one, that I've represented as a light green.

The camouflage of the rear fuselage is more elaborated than that of the nose (and, for what seems to see, of wings), possibly because the rear fuselage is more easily accessible to painters.



Below, an artist's impression of this plane.



Massimo
« Last Edit: February 20, 2017, 10:56:10 AM by Massimo Tessitori » Logged
learstang
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« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2012, 05:55:44 PM »

That has to be one of the most unusually camouflaged Shturmoviks I've ever seen, Massimo.  I agree that it appears to be metal-fuselaged.  Although the right side is of course conjecture, it looks reasonable, and it would make a fascinating subject for a model.

Regards,

Jason
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KL
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« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2012, 07:37:26 PM »

What would be the purpose of light green?  It's almost undistingushable...  Why not AMT-1 in this case?  Roll Eyes
If you want a striking model, or just to hypothesize, use tank paints 4BO, 6K and 7K.
Regards,
KL
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2012, 09:16:46 PM »

Hi,
I think that the color is light green because the camo on the fuselage, oval blotches over darker green or black (with black outlines), resembles the foliage of a tree, even if larger.
Of course, the light shade could also be some light brown. I don't think to AMT-1, both because the image is too early (summer 1941, and already a relict), botH because it's gloss although being not so new.
I don't know if 6k and 7k were gloss or when they were introduced. To tell the truth, I don't know their shade at all.
Regards
Massimo
« Last Edit: September 08, 2012, 11:47:28 PM by Massimo Tessitori » Logged
KL
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« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2012, 09:25:51 AM »

Hi Massimo,
Tank camouflage paints were suggested for this Il-2 on one russian forum.  Time and place where these photos were taken are known.  Supposedly tanks in that area were camouflaged (which was relatively uncommon) during July 1941 battles.

4BO was olive green, (4BO was AMT-4's progenitor)
6K was dark brown (probably related to never used "tobacco brown")
7K light earthy brown/yellow (7K was AMT-1's progenitor)

There was also black camouflage colour 6RP (obviously AMT-6's progenitor)




Jason, as I said before, I have nothing against Massimo's interpretations.  I hope Massimo will accept some of my suggestions and include them in his drawings.  Profile of an Il-2 that was painted like T-34 would be an interesting experiment.

HTH,
KL       
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2012, 10:27:54 AM »

Hi Konstantin,
the idea sounds possible, but I would know more on these colors: if they were glossy, when and where they were distributed. Else, my idea is that some technician made a mix with aviation paints.
Regards
Massimo
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KL
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« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2012, 06:08:38 PM »

the idea sounds possible, but I would know more on these colors: if they were glossy, when and where they were distributed. Else, my idea is that some technician made a mix with aviation paints.

Those paints were semi-glossy and they were definitelly in use in 1940-41.  "Badly painted Il-2" was photographed somewhere on the central front, AFAIK around Smolensk - I could find more details about the location/unit if you want to experiment with tank colours.  Wink

HTH,
KL 
« Last Edit: September 09, 2012, 06:19:40 PM by KL » Logged
learstang
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« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2012, 06:39:00 PM »


Jason, as I said before, I have nothing against Massimo's interpretations.  I hope Massimo will accept some of my suggestions and include them in his drawings.  Profile of an Il-2 that was painted like T-34 would be an interesting experiment.

HTH,
KL       

Fair enough, Konstantin.  As a matter of fact, I've included this profile in my book with the caveat ("warning") that it's somewhat conjectural, although it is based on a photograph.  I think as long as any modeller realises that a profile may have some extrapolation, that's sufficient.  No telling how many well-accepted profiles of Western WWII aircraft are somewhat conjectural.  If you want to see arguments about colours, just look at some threads regarding the actual colour of Olive Drab.  Or the paint scheme used on Singapore-based Vickers Vildebeests!

Regards,

Jason
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2012, 07:06:28 PM »

Hi Konstantin,
the interpretation is possible, but the resemblance with leaves gives to me the idea of light green. Isn't there any light green for tanks?
Maybe it could be the case of this one

even it this image is few for a profile.
Regards
Massimo
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KL
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« Reply #9 on: September 10, 2012, 08:04:48 PM »

I think that the color is light green because the camo on the fuselage, oval blotches over darker green or black (with black outlines), resembles the foliage of a tree, even if larger.
Of course, the light shade could also be some light brown. I don't think to AMT-1, both because the image is too early (summer 1941, and already a relict), botH because it's gloss although being not so new.
I don't know if 6k and 7k were gloss or when they were introduced. To tell the truth, I don't know their shade at all.

Massimo,
this would be an unique example of 1941 camouflage in which someone painted actual leafs  Huh
IMHO, those who camoufaged planes, tanks etc did understand what was the goal of disruptive camouflage.  Interpretation of camouflage as painted leafs would be an underestimation of Soviet camouflage theory and practice.
Unusual aspect in this case is relatively small size of camouflage fields for a plane of Il-2 size.  These small fields would work on a small tank/armoured car.
As I mentioned, camouflaged tanks were rare in 1941, among those that were camouflaged 3-colour scheme (olive green/dark brown/light brown ) was the the most common.
There was no "light green" - 4BO was light enough (especially on b/w photos)

For shades, I would rely on A. Akanihin
http://akan.ru/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=477&category_id=40&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=2
http://akan.ru/index.php?page=shop.product_details&product_id=897&category_id=40&flypage=flypage.tpl&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=2
http://akan.ru/index.php?page=shop.product_details&product_id=898&category_id=40&flypage=flypage.tpl&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=2

I think I posted this somewhere before, can't remember where...  Sad

HTH,
KL
« Last Edit: September 10, 2012, 08:15:49 PM by KL » Logged
KL
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« Reply #10 on: September 10, 2012, 11:27:25 PM »

Massimo,
we have discussed this a year ago - check post No 41:
http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1023.30

I still think that tank paints were more likely in July 1941 than some hypothetical paint mixes or AMT-1...

Regards,
KL
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learstang
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« Reply #11 on: September 11, 2012, 12:28:01 AM »

Konstantin, now I see what you're saying about the tank paint 7K - it does look like AMT-1.  It would make more sense that they would have used that than the still-experimental AMT-1.

Regards,

Jason
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #12 on: September 11, 2012, 07:18:54 AM »

Hi,
comparing one by one the blotches from those photos, it seems that there are more than three colors.

So, they appear identical in one photo, different in another. They have to be a brown and a green. I'll turn some of the blotches to brown.
Regards
Massimo
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KL
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« Reply #13 on: September 11, 2012, 08:49:01 AM »

Hi,
comparing one by one the blotches from those photos, it seems that there are more than three colors.

So, they appear identical in one photo, different in another. They have to be a brown and a green. I'll turn some of the blotches to brown.

Four colours are possible:  three tank colours + original A-19f

Four colours sorted from the lightest to the darkest:
1.  K7 light brown (the lightest)
2.  4BO light olive green
3.  A-19f darker olive green
4.  K6 dark brown
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #14 on: September 11, 2012, 05:02:08 PM »

Hi,
I think that the darker color is black. I am not sure about 4BO, I don't think it's lighter than A-18f. Maybe one can try to understand the characteristics of the film by observing other parts of the photo of the Bf-109.

I see that the yellow of the band appears rather dark here.

Regards
Massimo
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