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Author Topic: VVS Hurricane, photo captioned with two different pilots in two books,any ideas?  (Read 7657 times)
Troy Smith
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« on: October 10, 2012, 01:48:15 AM »

HI

this is from Marluc's photobucket, in this thread - http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=877.0



Quite a well known photo, I first saw this in Red Stars in the Sky 1.
But in two more recent books it is captioned as being flown by two different pilots.

In "Red Stars 4"
Capt.A.A.Kovalenko (2 GIAP SF)  It say Kovalenko was made HSU in 1942

in the Polish Publication "Hurricane in foreign service/ Hurricane w obcej sluzbie" captions it as
"Hurricane '01', the second aircraft with this number flown by  General Kuzneitsov"

Now, does anyone know which caption is correct?

And, if it is Kovalenko's plane, given it has the pilot and unit listed, would there be any record of the bort number and/or serial?

thanks
T
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marluc
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« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2012, 10:32:13 PM »

in the Polish Publication "Hurricane in foreign service/ Hurricane w obcej sluzbie" captions it as
"Hurricane '01', the second aircraft with this number flown by  General Kuzneitsov"

Hi Troy,Hurricane "white 01" flown by General Kuznetsov was a different plane,serial Z5252,and was not modified with the soviet weapons.So,the caption in "Hurricane in foreign service" must be wrong.Hope it helps,greetings.

Martin
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Troy Smith
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« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2012, 11:44:50 PM »

Hi Martin

the caption states the second plane coded '01'    which I take to be another Hurricane apart from the famous Z5252.

thanks
T
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marluc
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« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2012, 09:33:58 PM »

the caption states the second plane coded '01'   which I take to be another Hurricane apart from the famous Z5252.
Sorry,you?re right,I miss that part.

In Osprey #74 "Lend-Lease fighter aces of WWII",page 11,there?s the same picture and quoting the caption "Ace and future HSU winner,Capt. Aleksandr Kovalenko of 2 GIAP-SF,prepares to climb into his Hurricane Mk.IIb at Vaenga in the spring of 1942."

Martin
« Last Edit: October 11, 2012, 09:43:09 PM by marluc » Logged
KL
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« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2012, 10:05:24 PM »

Hi Troy,
unfortunately, nothing definitive regarding your Hurricane photo...  Sad

judging by the armament, your photo was probably taken in the second half of 1942...  Hurricanes with Soviet wing armament became common in the North Fleet AF only in the second half of 1942.  

A couple of photos that may have been taken during the same photo session:




also in simmilar setting:  78 iap squadron commander sn lieutenant Sgibnev, Vaenga airfield, 1942.


Capt. Aleksandr Kovalenko of 2 GIAP-SF, most likely isn't related to your photo.  Kovalenko's 2nd squadron of 78 sap (later 2 gsap VVS SF) received their Hurricanes in late 1941.  In May 1942 2 gsap started to receive American P-40s.  In June 1942, when awarded with HSU, Kovalenko was photographed in front of a P-40:




In Aug 1942, 2 giap was rearmed with P-39s.  Kovalenko probably never flew combat missions on Hurricanes armed with soviet guns and cannons...

HTH,
KL  
« Last Edit: October 22, 2012, 10:15:04 PM by KL » Logged
Troy Smith
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Posts: 380


« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2012, 01:22:18 AM »

HI Konstantin

thanks for replying. 

I've not seen the first two Hurricane pics before, they look to be the same plane.  Of note is the VVS armament, but also the two outer guns are still fitted.  I have not seen this combination before.
In the photo I asked about they have been plated over.

Also, the spinner and propeller blades appear the same pale colour, which is very unusual, and interesting...

in this thread, this Hurricane was discussed, including the apperent light coloured prop blades...so maybe they were!



the photo of Sn Lt Sgibnev was in Red Stars 1 way back in 1979 [which is when I got mine age 14...] and there are more photos from this time/photo session in Red Stars 4.

The one in the book is clearer, and the plane has not been re-gunned.  the plane in the background is of note in that the sky band and fin flash have been overpainted.
[I mention this, because despite profiles, it seems that most Hurricanes were supplied already painted with red stars.]

But, if Kovalenko never flew re-guuned Hurricanes, then that implies that Polish book caption may be more likely,  as in being Kuznetsov's second plane coded '01'? 

Any thoughts on this?

thanks again for a new VVS Hurricane photos, always a treat for me! Grin 

Do you have any more by any chance?

cheers
T

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KL
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« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2012, 11:27:23 PM »

the photo of Sn Lt Sgibnev was in Red Stars 1 way back in 1979 [which is when I got mine age 14...] and there are more photos from this time/photo session in Red Stars 4.

The one in the book is clearer, and the plane has not been re-gunned.  

I posted Sgibnev's photo to illustrate how Hurricane armament changed in 1942.

Following photos were taken in April 1942 - Sgibnev's Hurricane was still armed with British small calibre MGs.  This Hurricane had round exhausts.




from http://airaces.narod.ru/all5/sgibnev.htm

Second group of Sgibnev's photos was taken on June 13, 1942 when Sgibnev scored his 12th victory - the plane is probably the same as above


from http://babs71.livejournal.com/322956.html#cutid1


Third group of Sgibnev's photos was taken in August 1942, Sgibnev had 15 victories at that time - new Sgibnev's Hurricane was re-gunned with ShVAK cannons, and had fish tail exhausts:
 
from http://rgakfd.altsoft.spb.ru/showSubObjects.do?object=1008499410





Possible fishtail exhaust?


HTH,
KL


« Last Edit: October 24, 2012, 10:27:01 PM by KL » Logged
Troy Smith
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Posts: 380


« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2012, 06:40:42 AM »

 This Hurricane had round exhausts.
http://airaces.narod.ru/all5/sgibnev11.jpg

er, no, it doesn't.  Those are fishtail. 

Quote
Second group of Sgibnev's photos was taken on June 13, 1942 when Sgibnev scored his 12th victory - the plane is probably the same as above


from http://babs71.livejournal.com/322956.html#cutid1
now these are very interesting.   In Feb i posted this thread
http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1301.0
and then a youtube link. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6RE2Ib3veU
At it's at 5.16,

shame about the subtitles and youtube quality, but good enough to make out some details of the Hurris's, can even see the serial on bort 71, DR356....that's the plane above, note the odd shaped star and dark patch behind '71', and the patch visible in the 2nd pic.
Also, the link shows a profile of bort 77, which is plane landing before bort 71. 

I did some screen grabs but on another comp. Will put up later.
 Figures that it's film of an ace, but I'm very pleased that it's puts a name to the plane with Bort and serial number.  Made my day.

great stuff, thanks for posting Konstantin.

cheers
T
PS at 6.50 on this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JCsrjDI7hk&feature=relmfu  there is another Hurricane, I need to go to bed, but looks like  loading cannon shells, cant work out if IIC or VVS regunned.


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KL
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« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2012, 08:19:59 AM »

 This Hurricane had round exhausts.
http://airaces.narod.ru/all5/sgibnev11.jpg
er, no, it doesn't.  Those are fishtail. 

Exhausts are different:  round fishtail vs. flat fishtail...   Wink

Round as here:



Flat as here:

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KL
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« Reply #9 on: October 24, 2012, 07:47:20 PM »

Two "fishtail" exhaust types:

1. Curved fishtail exhausts



2. Straight fishtail exhausts


Hope it's clear now  Smiley
KL
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marluc
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« Reply #10 on: October 24, 2012, 10:01:44 PM »

Thanks for the very nice Hurricane pictures.It looks like the "flat fishtail" exhaust is of the round type but with a fishtail extension.Greetings.

Martin
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Troy Smith
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Posts: 380


« Reply #11 on: October 29, 2012, 02:36:28 PM »





Quote
Second group of Sgibnev's photos was taken on June 13, 1942 when Sgibnev scored his 12th victory - the plane is probably the same as above


from http://babs71.livejournal.com/322956.html#cutid1
Quote
now these are very interesting.   In Feb i posted this thread
http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1301.0
and then a youtube link. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6RE2Ib3veU
At it's at 5.16,

shame about the subtitles and youtube quality, but good enough to make out some details of the Hurris's, can even see the serial on bort 71, DR356....that's the plane above, note the odd shaped star and dark patch behind '71', and the patch visible in the 2nd pic.
Also, the link shows a profile of bort 77, which is plane landing before bort 71. 

I did some screen grabs but on another comp. Will put up later.
 Figures that it's film of an ace, but I'm very pleased that it's puts a name to the plane with Bort and serial number.  Made my day.

and here we go



note mis shaped fuselage star, and a dark patch behind.  Looks to have the mkI type round exhuast as well [see below]

here are the other planes from before  in the clip, bort 53 and bort 77.


looks to be summer, note the dust, and the planes appear to still have British guns, and only the inner ones fitted, but as stated, DR356 is a re-engined MkI to make it a IIA, so only had the 8 gun wing, soo these may be more of the same.
As the planes in the sequence appear similar in overall camo, I would suggest they are in DFS, Day Fighter Scheme, [dark green/ocean grey over medium sea grey] as the undersides appear considerably darker than the spinners.

compare to this pic posted by Konstantin, note that the spinner and UC door are the same colour, suggestings TLS, Temperate Land Scheme, [dark green/dark earth over sky]




This Hurricane had round exhausts.
http://airaces.narod.ru/all5/sgibnev11.jpg

er, no, it doesn't.  Those are fishtail. 

Very intersting point in the Hurricane exhuasts. I will reseach further, but when 'round' exhuast is mentioned, I think of the type associated with the MkI and early MkII, like this, which caused   the confusion, as well shown below.  There are earlier variants of round exhaust fitted to earlier MkI's as well, but these are the ones that became standard.


cheers
T
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KL
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Posts: 1678


« Reply #12 on: October 29, 2012, 07:01:44 PM »



note mis shaped fuselage star, and a dark patch behind.  Looks to have the mkI type round exhuast as well [see below]

here are the other planes from before  in the clip, bort 53 and bort 77.


looks to be summer, note the dust, and the planes appear to still have British guns, and only the inner ones fitted, but as stated, DR356 is a re-engined MkI to make it a IIA, so only had the 8 gun wing, soo these may be more of the same.
As the planes in the sequence appear similar in overall camo, I would suggest they are in DFS, Day Fighter Scheme, [dark green/ocean grey over medium sea grey] as the undersides appear considerably darker than the spinners.

Troy,
Thanks for the pictures, very interesting!

The clip is actually from the 1942 Soviet documentary "A Day of the War" ("День войны") directed by M. Slutskiy.  This movie was supposed to show events on June 13, 1942 both on the frontline and on the "home front".  Movie was filmed by 160 war correspondants in various combat units from Barents to Black Sea and in various factories. Movie was released on October 22, 1942.  The international premiere was in March 1943.
Check here about the movie:
http://books.google.ca/books?id=qtZ91DNvgBMC&pg=PA154&lpg=PA154&dq=Mikhail+Slutsky+Day+of+War&source=bl&ots=3iIFLQ8N8E&sig=lGF-AL_rqfnKWNuqdddI-CcowU0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=3b2OUNexGKn8iQKdg4CgCA&ved=0CDYQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=Mikhail%20Slutsky%20Day%20of%20War&f=false

In reality, Sgibnev scored his 12th victory on June 02, 1942 - this is the most likely date when your clip was taken.

HTH,
KL
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KL
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« Reply #13 on: October 30, 2012, 12:44:44 AM »

Shortened version of the "Den voini" movie released in 1943 by the March of Time newsreels is available here:
http://www.britishpathe.com/video/stills/march-of-time-one-day-of-war-russia-1943

There are only 20 minutes out of 80 - Sgibnev's Hurricane is not there  Embarrassed.  Some other well known clips are actually from this movie:






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Troy Smith
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Posts: 380


« Reply #14 on: October 30, 2012, 01:58:53 AM »

Shortened version of the "Den voini" movie released in 1943 by the March of Time newsreels is available here:
http://www.britishpathe.com/video/stills/march-of-time-one-day-of-war-russia-1943

There are only 20 minutes out of 80 - Sgibnev's Hurricane is not there  Embarrassed.  Some other well known clips are actually from this movie:


HI Konstantin
thanks for the info on the film.  The two Hurricane stills are in the other youtube link I posted above. 

The quoted pic is of note as this looks like a IIC, note the two belts of 20mm cannon shells.

I've not noticed berets on VVS ground crew before, any comments on this?
cheers
T
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