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Author Topic: Winter camo on Galchenko's LaGG-3  (Read 26417 times)
66misos
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« Reply #15 on: October 17, 2012, 10:39:22 AM »

Hi,
the general look of the plane was glossy enough to reflect cat's paws or Galchenko himself on the horizontal stabilizer as visible also on those prictures.
Photo also shows that plane surface was in a quite good conditions, repainted quite often. Not enough time for colors to fade significantly.

Some time ago I thougt that repainting done in 1942 could have been done with new AMT colors when old AII were already discontinued that time. When airbrushed AKAN acrylics, that square area (AMT-4) was lighter than background (AII Green) while photo shows square area darker than background. AMT-4 was not the right choice.
I saw a profile (I think it was in some Osprey book) where the square area covering the numbers was even brown ;-)

There was a lot of improvisation in the case of Galchenko's plane - no stars on fuselage or rudder, latter no stars even on the underwings, board number ovepainted, bands of the dark color do not follow any official NKAP scheme, etc.
So, now I tend to think that in 1941 they used black and/or also improvised black+AII green mixture while in 1942 black and/or improvised black+AMT-4 mixture for dark color.
Finaly, white bands of the winter camo also represents an improvisation, as shown in my first post in this topic.

As a modeller I have to make a decission at some moment and to paint the kit somehow. Even if one choice is only a bit more probable than other (51:49).
Unfortunately my experience shows that new, important info appears just after the kit is finished Cry
That's why I rather submit the winter camo alternative to discussion before I apply it on the kit.
Thank you again for your imputs.

Regards,
     66misos
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AC26
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« Reply #16 on: October 17, 2012, 07:58:39 PM »

thinned black over green is credible...

I would be interested to see a proof for thinned/semy-transparent/transparent black paint.  Roll Eyes  Black paint on the LaGG-3 fragment preserved at Vesivehmaa is solid matt black.
Hello gentz,

I agree with KL as eyewitness of the mentioned part but like to add with that the black has slightly bluish hue.

Cheers,

AaCee
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #17 on: October 17, 2012, 08:17:28 PM »

Bluish... interesting. Thank you for having written this.
Regards
Massimo
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KL
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« Reply #18 on: October 17, 2012, 08:32:30 PM »

Hi 66misos,
IMHO, better forget dark green...  It's a relict of those times when people believed Pilawskii...  Grin
Nowdays we know that most planes interpreted as green-brown or green-dark green were in reality painted according to the 1941 black-green scheme.

Contrast between black and green paint doesn't have to be high on b/w photos - Massimo didn't have any problems to identify black-green scheme even when contrast between colours was low:







Galchenko's LaGG-3 could be one of those prewar planes that were camouflaged in summer 1941 with black fields. June 1941 order also required to modify markings:  tail stars were added and wing stars were overpainted.  Presence of tail stars on Galchenko's LaGG confirms that those who camouflaged the plane had been familiar with the order.

If Galchenko's plane was a prewar machine, it was painted with glossy AII Green.




AII Green was somewhat darker than green shown on profiles.  It should look like MiG-3 wing displayed at the Vesivehmaa museum:



AII Green was darker than AMT-4!!!  Akan paints don't show difference between those two paints - they are tonaly too close and they are both matt.
Following photo shows both paints side by side:  Lagg-3 fuselage is painted with matt AMT-4, Mig-3 wing in background is glossy AII Green (too much reflection from the flash, but you got an idea)  Smiley

 

« Last Edit: October 18, 2012, 08:27:24 AM by KL » Logged
66misos
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« Reply #19 on: October 17, 2012, 10:39:26 PM »

Hi KL,

thanks for pictures. You write that
Quote
AII Green was darker than AMT-6!!!  Akan paints don't show difference between those two paints - they are tonaly too close and they are both matt.
Following photo shows both paints side by side:  Lagg-3 fuselage is painted with matt AMT-6, Mig-3 wing in background is glossy AII Green (too much reflection from the flash, but you got an idea)

Do you really mean AMT-6 Black or AMT-4 Green? I am not sure that AII Green is darker than black  Huh

Anyway, this is my "sample box" of some basic AKAN acrylics - airbrushed directly from bottles, not thinned:

Photo made a minute ago with my mobile, so it is not hard refference. Important is only quite remarkable difference between AII Blue vs. AMT-7 and AII Green vs. AMT-4.

My LaGG-3 is already pained and with decals. So I am gonna assume that black is new black and that diluted black (with green hue) is faded black Wink Finally, most of that "faded" black will disappeared after the winter camo is painted. The only question is what are the shapes and dimensions of that white areas - fundamental question of this topic.

Regards,
     66misos
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learstang
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« Reply #20 on: October 17, 2012, 10:43:40 PM »

It may not be a hard reference, but it's still an interesting photograph, 66misos - thank you for posting!  Is that dark colour above the greens AMT-6 Black or AMT-12 Dark Grey?  That is a remarkable difference between the blues - I have to say that the blues I've used on my VVS models look more like AKAN's AII Blue.

Regards,

Jason
« Last Edit: October 17, 2012, 10:45:24 PM by learstang » Logged

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KL
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« Reply #21 on: October 17, 2012, 10:44:09 PM »

 Embarrassed Ups... I meant olive green AMT-4...  Embarrassed
I was trying to explain difference between pre-1941 AII Green and post-1941 AMT-4 green...
KL

PS:  I have corrected post above  Smiley.
Your AII green and AMT-4 are tonally different enough.  the only difference not visible on your photo is how glossy is AII Green.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2012, 10:54:12 PM by KL » Logged
66misos
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« Reply #22 on: October 17, 2012, 10:53:16 PM »

Hi Jason,

upper left quadrant is AMT-11, upper right quadrant is AMT-12. And AMT-12 is separated from green colors by AMT-6 Black - to directly compare AMT-12 vs. Black and AII Green vs. AMT-4 and them both vs. Black.
I found this CD box quite practical. When it is closed, nothing damage colors while colors are still visible.

Regards,
     66misos
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learstang
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« Reply #23 on: October 17, 2012, 10:58:19 PM »

Clever about the CD box (I may have to try it myself).  I can see now where the AMT-6 is - I thought it was a shadow.  Now, of course, I can see that it isn't.

Regards,

Jason
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Troy Smith
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« Reply #24 on: October 21, 2012, 02:26:14 AM »


I agree with KL as eyewitness of the mentioned part but like to add with that the black has slightly bluish hue.


Perhaps worth noting the RAF colour Night had a high ultramarine pigment,
http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=51600&#entry545189
Quote
'Night' was a mix of carbon black and ultramarine. Exactly the same combination of pigments used by the Japanese Navy to paint the blue-black Zero cowlings, so Japanese "cowling colour" is a good option.
AKAN AMT-6 is a blue hued black as well.




Contrast between black and green paint doesn't have to be high on b/w photos - Massimo didn't have any problems to identify black-green scheme even when contrast between colours was low:



Hmm, note how the stars appear darker than the black, I wonder if this is taken with orthochromatic film? 
If you have ever seen a pic of a British aircraft which shows roundel red as darker than the blue, it's a result of this.
Also yellow appears as black. This Tornado prototype has yellow undersides, as well as a yellow 'P' marking.


I mention this as a blue hued black could possibly appear lighter as result.

Hope of interest even if a little off topic.
T
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #25 on: October 21, 2012, 07:58:38 AM »

Hi Troy,
certainly it is interesting. Red stars appear of all the possible shades of grey on bw photos, from white to black. It's certainly an effect of the film and filter utilized.
The most mysterious case is when two red stars on the same photo of the same plane appear of very different colors, and one wonders if they  both are red or one is of a completely different color.
Regards
Massimo
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66misos
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« Reply #26 on: January 15, 2013, 09:39:10 AM »

Hi,
here is a screenshot from document movie showing how Galchenko polishes his cat on the LaGG-3 tail.
Picture nicely shows details of the cat but also repaired area above the cat and part of the tail bellow/behind the cat painted with some lighter color:


Massimo profile shows repaired area on the oposite side of the tail painted with yellow color:


Have you any idea/suggestion of what color could be that lighter paint on the tail? Red? Yellow? It does not look like light/shadow.
Thanks in advance.

Regards,
     66misos
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #27 on: January 15, 2013, 04:07:23 PM »

Hi Misos,
thank you for the clean screenshot.
About the lighter dot, it seems on the trim tab. So it could be that:
it was repainted in green or red (do you see this on other photos?)
it was moved and under a different light.
I don't think that it' the shadow of Galchenko himself, all other shadows are much more blurried.
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66misos
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« Reply #28 on: January 15, 2013, 05:34:01 PM »

Hi Massimo,
here are another pictures:


I took your profile and flipped it to get the tail in the same position.
Marked lighter area has the same shape, position and color regardless Galchenko's movement. It seems to be painted trim on the rudder.
It does not look like something painted accidentally (e.g. repair), so I do not think that it is green (AMT-4?). Could it be red? The photo is from winter 1941/42.


Repaired areas have quite different color than green/black background. Could it be yellowish nitroputty primer, roughly repainted black or AII green?

Regards,
    66misos
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #29 on: January 15, 2013, 06:29:07 PM »

Hi Misos,
those rounds are all behind the hinges of the rudder. Who knows if they all were replaced?
Regards
Massimo
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