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Author Topic: Green - green scheme  (Read 4069 times)
HenkNtb
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« on: January 06, 2013, 03:05:58 PM »

Hallo guy's, this is my first posting, so perhaps its in the wrong place. I'm 'studying' camouflage schemes to use in the Il-2 Sthurmovik simulator. At the moment I'm looking at the Yak-1 and found in Eric Pilawskii's book the mentioning of a green / green scheme on page 133, 135 and 137. but, checking out http://airfield.narod.ru, I could not find a single green / green scheme there. So thats why I ask here: did the Yak 1 really did have a green / green scheme during the war?

Thanks for reading
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2013, 04:46:48 PM »

Hi Henk,
accordink to known documents, a green-green camouflage was never considered in the standards of the VVS, what was often interpreted as darker green or red brown was probably black, more or less faded.
Of course, this don't necessarily mean that none Soviet aircraft was painted this way (some veterans speak of green-green paintings, for example), but available photos should be interpreted as according to the codified standard unless there are other good reasons to do differently. Yak-1s are planes that usually show an high contrast in photos (at least after 1941), so there is no doubt that the darker color was black.
Regards
Massimo
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HenkNtb
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« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2013, 05:12:14 PM »

Wow that was quick, thanks Massimo  Smiley
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #3 on: January 06, 2013, 05:24:07 PM »

You're welcome.
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KL
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« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2013, 06:37:26 PM »

Hi Henk,
AII Dark Greed mentioned in Pilawkii's book is pure fiction.  Dark green camouflage paints haven't been produced during the war in Soviet Union.  In reality, Soviet paint industry produced only one green camouflage colour - it was called "Protective" and it was olive green.

Since you are  'studying' camouflage schemes you should be aware of the "Pilawskii case".  His book is practically useless; most colours and schemes are fiction i.e. product of his imagination.  More on the following thread:  http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1071.0

HTH,
KL
« Last Edit: January 06, 2013, 07:41:44 PM by KL » Logged
HenkNtb
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« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2013, 09:45:00 PM »

Hi KL, I have noticed that you are not a fan of Mr. Pilawskii.  Wink I grew up with the Profile publications, so anything looking more serious than 'The black-and-green camouflage on this aircraft originated with the use of stocks of paint held for the tractors previously build by the factory' * looked good. I have also seen rather great mistakes by Mr. P. on fighter performance in his book. I've learned a lot in my short time on this site.

* Quote from Air International vol. 20, page 42.
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B_Realistic
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« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2013, 09:29:39 AM »

Hi KL, I have noticed that you are not a fan of Mr. Pilawskii.  Wink I grew up with the Profile publications, so anything looking more serious than 'The black-and-green camouflage on this aircraft originated with the use of stocks of paint held for the tractors previously build by the factory' * looked good. I have also seen rather great mistakes by Mr. P. on fighter performance in his book. I've learned a lot in my short time on this site.

* Quote from Air International vol. 20, page 42.

I've opened my eyes also when I joined this site. Cheesy
There is sometimes pritty intense conversations considering colors but you've got pro's here.
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KL
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« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2013, 06:25:38 PM »

Hi KL, I have noticed that you are not a fan of Mr. Pilawskii.  Wink I grew up with the Profile publications, so anything looking more serious than 'The black-and-green camouflage on this aircraft originated with the use of stocks of paint held for the tractors previously build by the factory' * looked good. I have also seen rather great mistakes by Mr. P. on fighter performance in his book. I've learned a lot in my short time on this site.

* Quote from Air International vol. 20, page 42.

Hi HenkNtb,
Thanks for posting this - I believe that cold war era myths should be uprooted (The real history is more interesting).  Sometimes it helps to identify the origin of the story and to prove it is a myth...

I also grew up with William Green's and Gordon Swanborugh's texts in 1970es and 1980es.  I know well that those two authors absorbed everything that appeared in Soviet popular literature at that time.  This can not be said for Pilawskii - he rejected most of Orlov's and Vahlamov's research from late 1990es.  Plus, he continued to propagate myths from 1970es...  This made him not a historian.
KL
« Last Edit: January 16, 2013, 08:19:42 PM by Massimo Tessitori » Logged
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2013, 08:22:06 PM »

Hi all,
you know that I have not any admiration for EP, but it's bad to continue personal attacks against him.
Regards
Massimo
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HenkNtb
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« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2013, 09:29:44 PM »

Yes you're right Massimo, and I think there's no more difficult terain than colour. So many influences different batches, different preparations, different underground preparation, almost to many to mention.
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KL
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« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2013, 07:50:38 AM »

Hi all,
you know that I have not any admiration for EP, but it's bad to continue personal attacks against him.

Yes you're right Massimo, and I think there's no more difficult terain than colour. So many influences different batches, different preparations, different underground preparation, almost to many to mention.

It's not about personal attacks, and not about the shades of green.  It's about desinformation that Pilawskii spreads.  Not minor details, his book and website provide totally wrong picture of VVS camouflage practices.
First post refers to his book, more specifically to one of the many cases when he made up things.  I think it is fair to warn new forum member how unreliable is Pilawskii's book.
KL
« Last Edit: January 17, 2013, 07:59:25 AM by KL » Logged
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