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Author Topic: 246 IAP Huricane IID.  (Read 12911 times)
barneybolac
Sr. Member
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Posts: 320


« on: January 13, 2013, 03:25:53 PM »

Curious as to what thoughts you all might have of the accuracy of the model compared to this photo?

Only ask as most profiles seem to not show as much detail as the photo for example the lighter coloured nose?




http://www.network54.com/Forum/478986/thread/1247632736/Hurricane+Mk+II.+D

http://img.wp.scn.ru/camms/ar/79/pics/1_11.jpg

http://www.hannants.co.uk/product/AMLD7210
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Ohotnyik
Jr. Member
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Posts: 91


« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2013, 05:25:48 PM »

Hello!
I belive that the nose is maybe gray or blue but definetly a light shade.
The original english markings are painted over with green.
The 21 has a shading, it is noticable only when you magnify the picture.
But I repeat these are only my conclusions,based on the building of my kit.

http://www.makett.org/forum/index.php/topic,268.0.html

Greeting

 Istv
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Troy Smith
Sr. Member
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Posts: 380


« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2013, 06:18:18 AM »

Hello!
I belive that the nose is maybe gray or blue but definetly a light shade.
The original english markings are painted over with green.
The 21 has a shading, it is noticable only when you magnify the picture.
But I repeat these are only my conclusions,based on the building of my kit.

http://www.makett.org/forum/index.php/topic,268.0.html

Greeting

 Istv?n

HI Istvan

I don't agree. As the picture quality of the original photo is not the best,  I'd not like to be too dogmatic,
But your model shows AMT-4 overpainting.  I don't see that in the original photo.  But the shading on the '21' looks believable, well spotted. 



It seems that red stars were applied by the British NOT the VVS, so RAF markings painted out with RAF paint, then red stars applied.   Sometimes the fresh RAF paint shows up darker, and this is taken for VVS overpainting.
eg Spitfires at Abadan, Iran before delivery

in "Red Stars in the sky 4" there are pics of the markings being sprayed out and red stars applied. Note painted out yellow leading edge strips as well.

There are examples of VVS overpainting of RAF markings, but I think these are the exceptions, usually initial evaluation types, at NII VVS, where they were photographed. 
[eg mk IIA
I can think of one exception to this, shown in this thread.
http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1441.0

note plane in background with over-painted sky band and fin flash, [better quality versions of this pic exist BTW]
The only other are the planes handed over by 151 wing, and even then quite possibly with RAF paint, see
http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/articles/sheppard/hurricane_Z5252/hurricane_12.jpg
http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/articles/sheppard/hurricane_Z5252/index.htm

As for the pale nose, have you considered it's dried mud or dirt from the crash landing?

The red stars have had late war style white/silver and then red outlines added.  VVS practice was not to have upperwing stars, so these may have been painted out, note that the spitfires above
DO have upperwing stars, and there are photos of Hurricanes on here showing upperwing stars as well.



I think this is a better interpretation than yours, sorry.


I'd not like to comment on the tropical filter or the colour of the spinner, which could be black or sky. Given the lack of sky band, black seems more likely.  I've seen both on VVS planes [along with odd pale colour entire props and spinners! in this thread http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1441.0]

Of interest is that the upper surface colours are reversed, the darker colour is usually the top colour of the tail, though this photo has both, note the reversal of colours on plane in the background, with ocean grey around the cockpit area, and they are both KX*** serialed Hurricanes


Also, Hurricane IId's had different  wing access panels, both models show IIC wing type layout.

as this is a thread on the IID ...


here's a  scale plan of IID access panels and 40mm gun.
Should be 1/24, from the old book on detailing the 1/24th Airfix Hurricane.



if not, I scanned a ruler at the top which should allow you to scale it.

HTH
T
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Massimo Tessitori
Administrator
Hero Member
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Posts: 5776


« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2013, 10:17:54 AM »

Hi all,
I don't think that the nose is light because it is muddy. I don't see traces of mud on the windshield, tail wheel or other parts of the plane. Besides I think to see lighter repainting around the star on the fuselage.
I see that a large amount of the rear fuselage underside covering is missing. Could this be due to the landing? It would be strange, being the tail wheel intact. Could it be the thing between the pods on the ground?
Regards
Massimo
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Ohotnyik
Jr. Member
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Posts: 91


« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2013, 01:34:37 PM »

Troy
In my opinion it is only natural to have arguments over the intepretaton of a picture, ibelive this is what moves us forward in understanding.
As you can see both kits are my work, only with a slight difference in time and scale, due to the time elapsed between my two works, is the difference in my interpretation.
Thank you for the schematics of the IID wings, I didn?t know them, I worked form a different source.
The RAF used 4 paint schemes, ?A? its mirror image ?B?,and the inverse of these two, in therory in every squadron there were equall numbers of each of them, and if I remember well, it was based ont he even and odd production numbers.
Unfortunatly I could not find a standard procedure  in regards of the trading and repainting  of the planes.
As you already wrote it, there were  quite a few soulutions, I don?t know what determinated it.
The desert , filter didn?t show up on the pictures, so I based my kit on the pictures avaiable.
The spinner? I dont know why but I decided on black, at that time.
What I see, or I belive to see on these realy low quality pictures are the following.
1.
A lighter cowling
Check the, the edge ,where the two panls meet, it has a sharp borderline, I don?t think this could be mud or dirt, if it is then it can only by chance, in my opinion.




2.
Under  the red star the spot is lighter shade of green wit ha sharp border, than the RAF dark green one




3. The shading of the number 21 is purely quess work but I belive that red is the most likely




The only lightside of this is that there are more and more better quality pictures are found, I hope there is somewhere an even better than this photo from the print.

Istv
« Last Edit: January 14, 2013, 01:38:54 PM by Ohotnyik » Logged
Troy Smith
Sr. Member
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Posts: 380


« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2013, 10:04:50 PM »

Troy
In my opinion it is only natural to have arguments over the intepretaton of a picture, ibelive this is what moves us forward in understanding.

Indeed. 

Quote
As you can see both kits are my work, only with a slight difference in time and scale, due to the time elapsed between my two works, is the difference in my interpretation.
sory, I didn't realise that, I didn't check the site to carefully, just enought to look at the photos and realise it was in Hungarian [my ex is Hungarian, visted a few times]

Quote
Thank you for the schematics of the IID wings, I didn?t know them, I worked form a different source.
The RAF used 4 paint schemes, ?A? its mirror image ?B?,and the inverse of these two, in therory in every squadron there were equall numbers of each of them, and if I remember well, it was based ont he even and odd production numbers.

The information on Hurricane wings is not always clear, the MkIV wing is slightly different as well.  I added the drawings as it seemed a good place for them for other reffering to this thread.  [We are building the best VVS resource on the web after all Smiley ]

The A/B scheme system was dropped in 1941, standardising on the 'A' pattern.   Colour reversal evidently did occur, as shown in the 164 squadron picture above.

Quote
Unfortunatly I could not find a standard procedure  in regards of the trading and repainting  of the planes.
As you already wrote it, there were  quite a few soulutions, I don?t know what determinated it.
The desert , filter didn?t show up on the pictures, so I based my kit on the pictures avaiable.
The spinner? I dont know why but I decided on black, at that time.

Hmm...if they did get Hurricanes from the desert airforce they could have red spinners! [see next post]

What I see, or I belive to see on these realy low quality pictures are the following.
Quote
1.
A lighter cowling
Check the, the edge ,where the two panls meet, it has a sharp borderline, I don?t think this could be mud or dirt, if it is then it can only by chance, in my opinion.



I just had an idea.  As the break is on the panel line, I'd suggest it's a replacement panel from a plane in the standard 'A' scheme, as seen on the plane at the front of the 164 sq pic, imagine taking the front cowling panels of the plane in the fron,and putting them on the plane behind.
If taken from an older plane with faded paint, or even with another paint scheme [eg desert finish, in the link below it seems some planes are from desert] that would give the sharp demarcation line shown, and other details that might confirm this are hidden behind the wing.

bear in mind this certainly happened.  Note this famous photo.


Quote
This Huricane has the external sections of the wing replaced by flying surfaces modified with soviet weapons.Fuselage in D.Green/D.Earth/Sky and external wings in D.Green/O.Grey/M.Sea Grey

There are other examples of this in VVS pics as well.

here's some desert finished planes, note alternated colours between 1st and 2nd planes


The other point, is why?
Different coloured noses on VVS planes are a rare feature.  It's possible, but given the change in colour is on a panel line, panels from another plane seems more likely.


Quote
2.
Under  the red star the spot is lighter shade of green wit ha sharp border, than the RAF dark green one




3. The shading of the number 21 is purely quess work but I belive that red is the most likely




The only lightside of this is that there are more and more better quality pictures are found, I hope there is somewhere an even better than this photo from the print.

Istv?n

Hmm, I don't know. I don't see it.   Have you tried playing with the picture in photoshop?

Be interesting to know where the publishers got the photo from, as i can't read the serial on this print.

Is there any more on Russian language forums?  I'm sure a larger print without the dot-screening needed to print in half-tone would help! [i'll try playing with the photo later]

Looking through other Hurricane thread on here, found this link
http://airwar.ru/history/av2ww/soviet/hurr2d/hurr2d.html

I'll add the auto translation as a separate post.

szia

T
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Troy Smith
Sr. Member
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Posts: 380


« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2013, 10:11:50 PM »


google auto translate of  http://airwar.ru/history/av2ww/soviet/hurr2d/hurr2d.html

... I got the idea that maybe you want to get your operations against the German armored forces on the Russian front a few of our "Hurricane", armed 40-mm cannon. During the recent fighting in Tunisia, the aircraft successfully acted against Rommel's tanks. One squadron of 16 aircraft destroyed 19 tanks for 4 days. The aircraft is known as the "Hurricane" IID ... I could send you a maximum of 60 aircraft of this type. Let me know if you wish to receive them ...
(From a strictly private and personal message from the Prime Minister, Mr. Winston Churchill, Marshal Joseph Stalin on April 10, 1943)

... I also appreciate your offer to send us the 60 aircraft "Hurricane" IID with 40 mm cannon. Such planes we are needed, especially against heavy tanks.
(From a personal and confidential message Stalin Prime Minister, Mr. Churchill on April 12, 1943)



Heschadno tormented tanks Rommel, of the British Army in North Africa just felt unarmed 40-mm shells "Valentine" and "Matilda", a 20-mm shells involved in direct support of troops of fighters did not represent a real threat to armor "pantserkampfvagenov."

But if the same 40-mm cannon installed on the fighter, the armor will increase dramatically by adding to the initial velocity of the projectile speed of the aircraft, and "peck" the thin top armor, especially in the engine and fuel tanks, of course, is easier. The question of support for the British was not: if you want to fly low and slow down, equals "Hurricane" was not.

Mk.IID prototype model with registration number Z2326, manned K.Set-Smith, made its first flight 18 September 1941 Mass production launched in early 1942 At the first aircraft in nacelles under the wings mount two 40-mm cannon, "Rolls-Royce "BF with a belt-fed. Machines in this series were mostly in the 184th Sqn. RAF [184th Division of the Royal Air Force (Editor's note.)], Were based in the UK. Subsequent series have guns "Vickers" S of the same caliber, with ammunition to 15 rounds per gun. Direction of fire were two machine guns "Browning" Mk.II caliber 7.69 mm belt-fed ammunition and the barrel to 338 rounds with tracer bullets. Such machines were equipped with five divisions in North Africa and at least three - in the Far East. Ha these theaters, "Hurricanes" IID well-proven, fighting or a weak counter defense, or at all without it.

Ho in April 1943, the fighting in North Africa were close to completion. Before the British got a question: what to do with fairly served as "Hurricane"? Left them five dozen, no more, but the throw - sorry, to use more - it makes no sense, full of new cars. That's where the thought came: and not offer it to whom? Haprimer, "Uncle Joe"? As they say, for a good man, and "Hurricane" do not mind ...

Then, in April 43rd, we have a "grub is not going over" - the war had just moved away from the Baku oil, and at Stalingrad, the Germans are not alone suffered huge losses ...

"Hurricanes" IID were in the Soviet Air Force, after removing them from service divisions RAF in North Africa. May 14 in his letter I. Stalin, Prime Minister, Mr. Churchill kindly: "... the remaining 200" Hurricane ", including 60" Hurricane "IID, will be shipped across the Mediterranean and will be transferred to Basra ... decided to send them to Basra, t . because we could not, without removing the guns, which would then send to Tehran, to equip them with extra fuel tanks needed for flight across Africa. "

"Hurricane" in the holds of ships (conventionally considered - from Bizerte) delivered to Basra - 8200 nautical miles, or 25-28 days of travel. Here boxes planes unloaded, were assembled and the average repair. After testing the air and acceptance of military representatives IHO (Import Control AFRA) "Hurricane" pilots passed 6th PIAP (Ferry Fighter Wing), who take them to the Soviet Union on the route Tehran-Basra-Gence. Flights took place under difficult conditions, through two mountain passes, with one stopover in Tehran. Because of Basra distilled mostly bombers, the "Hurricane" in the beginning were not intended - for the 11th ZBAP [Passive Bomber AP. The term "reserve regiment" or REC implied link of the Air Force. has two main functions: training center for personnel on certain types of aircraft (similar to the German B-Schule) and the depot immediately distribute new cars in military aviation. Even loss replenished not with plants, as previously we have written, and it is through ZAPy.], Located in Kirovobad. September 4, 1943 came the first "Hurricane" IID, serial numbers KX165, 173, 294, 296, 298, 7 September - KX302, September 12 - KX177, 230, 303, September 13 - KX299, September 21 - KX175, 181, 225, 250, 301, 423, 463, 466, 866, 25 September - KX166. 172, 865, September 27 - KX248, 418. 465. The last was in 1943, KX232, flown October 31, 1943

As instructors 11th ZBAP had no experience training in "Hurricane", soon all the new hardware were transferred to the 25th Giap (spare Fighter Wing). There, in the early 1944 came "Hurricane" IID KX140, 167, 169, 231, 233, 293, 297. 300, 415, 420, 461, 462. 468, 864, HW722, 724, KW773, 777 and PS444, 790. All the fighters were equipped with engines "Merlin" XX with dust filters and 40-mm guns "Vickers" S. Thus, of the 60 promised "Xarrikeynov" IID to combat units of the Soviet Air Force received only 46 aircraft. [USSR received several dozen aircraft "Hurricane" Mk.IV, in the alternative (replacement) of arms which also included a 40-mm cannon.] In addition, one or two instances were tested in NII VVS.

By the time the "Hurricane" IID in the 25th Giap changed the system of training for the Air Force instead of whole regiments, withdraws from the front, began to prepare a separate crews to replenish. Ho "wonder weapon" to heighten the effect, it was decided to use massively, and do not spray on different parts. Finger of fate pointed clearly to the last, lingering chance in the 25th Fighter Wing.

246-IAP was honest biography, but confusing as life bastard son of the royal person. Even the local "special person" desperate to sort out all the corners of his fate, and agreed that "the regiment has only documents from 27.10.1941, the" That's when the regiment, formed initially as the 295th IAP, on the oral order of the Chief Training Center Air Force Colonel Southern Front Komleva exchanged numbers, seals and stamps from 246th IAP [246 IAP was formed to study in April 1940 in Kirovograd - Odessa IN - on the plane I-16 (according to the memoirs of a former chief of staff of the regiment, recorded in the Central Archive of the Ministry of Defense documents.] (There were, it appears, and such miracles).

In June 1942, the 246th (formerly 295) IAP served in the 25th Giap, which has mastered the LaGG-W. Taught Regiment in conscience, though in outdated methods: individual and group (up to 9 itself.), Flying, shooting at ground and air targets, bombing.

10/03/1942, the regiment formed statewide 015/174 (20 crews), under the command of Lieutenant Colonel Kudryashova departed for the front in the 235-th IAD 5th Air Force VA Transcaucasian Front. Good preparation affected the military successes: with 5.10 on 17/12/1942, in 32 air battles Regiment shot down 38 enemy aircraft: 26 Me-109, 8, Me-110, 1 He-113 and three Ju-52. And had to fight in extreme conditions: from awkward mountain airfields in the rainy season, under continuous bombing and the numerical superiority of the Germans. The regiment came aces - komzvena l-t P.M.Kamozin knocked in one battle 3 German aircraft (personal account and brought to 12 victories, was promoted to the rank of the Hero, and 07/01/1944, became twice Hero of the Soviet Union).

In intense battles with an experienced opponent regiment quickly "melted": two months remaining 5 aircraft 14 LaGG-W were shot down in aerial combat and one destroyed on the ground, three broken in the accident, did not return to the job nine pilots. 17/12/1942, the regiment, passing 70% of the flight, and the remaining half tehsostava LaGG-W, has already left to re-form in the 25th Giap (g.Adzhi-Kabul, Azerbaijan), where he began training 01/25/1943 on airplanes " Cobra "and" Kittyhawk ".

Notwithstanding the rapid recruitment of new staff to the shelf 015/284 (3 Squadron, 32 pilots) and intensive training, his stay in ZAP stretched for a half year. In the summer of 1943 P.M.Kamozin, surrendering to the "top five" aerial shooting, departed in the 66th IAP, went to the front and some other experienced pilots. The rest of the year carried more difficult service in terms of full temptations Caucasian mineral waters.

In autumn 1943, the exhausted Narzan and long life rear personnel dumped unexpected news: they fly "Hurricane"! Even in the 41st year, the aircraft is not the feet of Soviet pilots, especially - at the end of the 43rd. After inspection machines arrived last light haze dispelled hopes for the new weapon. The first order, signaling the entry into service of aircraft regiment sounded straightforward and sadly:

13.11.1943 city, camp Vaziani
Order No.2

Received "Hurricane" IID of 26 and 11 REC REC to carry out combat tasks are not ready. Prepare to 01/12/1943, the regiment
Regimental commander, Major Poprykin.

01/01/1944 246 ha, the IAP was staffed 37 aircraft "Hurricane" IID (mid. numbers KX140, 165, 167. 169. 173, 175, 181, 230-233, 248, 250, 293. 294, 297 - 301, 303, 415, 418, 420, 462, 463, 465, 466, 468, 864-866, HW722, 724, KW773, 777 and PS790), 5 of them are defective (KX169, 173, 181, 299, 465) .

Retraining on simple to fly and maintain the aircraft lasted almost seven months (at a rate of two months), and was accompanied by heavy accidents, failures, and draw conclusions. The first "Open Account" he regimental commander, Major A. Poprykin who made 29.12.1943, the emergency landing on the KX169 because of engine failure. 08/01/1944, the flight ended tragically ml. l-ta P.M.Goreva on KX173 - the plane crashed into the ground, killing the pilot. True, it was the only disaster for the entire period of stay "Hurricane" IID in the Soviet Air Force. All in all, the process of learning, there were 13 accidents in January (6 - because of the materiel, 7 - the fault of drivers), 3 crash in February (2 and 1), one in March and April (engine failure). On the report of Senior Engineer Regiment, the engine failure "Merlin" XX provoked a significant number of accidents - 7 cases on the ground and in the air from October 43rd to April 18th, 1944

Almost parallel with the development of the fighter in combat regiment took its flight testing in NII VVS. To quote the relevant document.

Letter input. No.025 of 03.07.1944, the senior engineer 25 REC

In connection with entering into service parts AFRA aircraft "Hurricane" IID (with two outboard 40mm cannons) NII VVS KA made ​​test flights of the aircraft.

Tests have shown that in a dive at a speed of 390 miles / hour (630 km / h) on the device with the rudder trim tabs set neutral, normal behavior of the aircraft, the trend to delay the peak there. Efforts to normal rudder.

Ho, at the same time at a speed of 380-385 miles / hour (610-620 km / h) is sucking and disruption from castles fairings underwing cannon, which leads to a noticeable shaking and vibration planes foot controller.

Ha on the above dive speed aircraft, "Hurricane" IID limit to 375 miles / hour (600 km / h). By airplane pilot technique "Hurricane" IID is different from the "Hurricane" IIC.

Range and duration of flight, "Hurricane" IID almost equal values ​​for their IIC. Chief Engineer AFRA General-regiment. IAS t.Repin ordered features of this type of aircraft to bring to the attention of all flight and technical staff operating a "Hurricane" IID.

Hach. Ute AFRA General-l-t Shtulgovsky.

Late in the day, however, brought - aircraft technicians had by this time aware "features such as" on your own skin, breaking KX173, 248, 181, 299 in the period from 03.01.1944 to 01.31 g, KX250, 298, 299 and 866, PS444 and 790, written off 3.17 at 04.02.1944, already after "finishing"

Although tests have confirmed the positive aspects of "Hurricane" IID-sustainability as a gun platform and high armor 40-mm guns, the relation to the aircraft AFRA in 1944 was negative. Vh.No.031 on 29.03.1944, the

Senior engineer of 246 IAP

Pursuant to instructions Air Force Commander General-SC Regiment. Aviation t.Hikitina for b035b9s on 08/26/1943, aircraft "Hurricane" Recovery Products. You provided to write off the plane KX866 and use for parts.

Deputy. chief engineer of the Air Force of the Transcaucasian Front engineer Major Dod.

And Stalin, according to the memoirs Zhukov, spoke and did the Bolshevik simply: "... And their" Hurricane "- rubbish ..."

The command of the 246-th IAP tried to fight off the dubious honor of war on the "Hurricane." Because direct refusal threatened journey to the front in the penal battalion, chose a different path: engineer regiment threw command ZAP reports on the status of materiel, which would tear even squeezed in stone: damage engines, broken screws, cut tires, no spare parts, unsuitable equipment, and most importantly - peel off, sometimes even rotten percale. The latter defect was the most serious and, as will be shown, only real. Ho have sunken had a plan for training. Therefore "... the Commission 25 REC 12 March 1944 at the airport Sartachaly inspected 32 aircraft" Hurricane "IID. Airplanes are considered fit for combat use. Cuts on the chassis and tires potholes caused by wood screws coated rocky airfield. Heispravnosti motor considered isolated. The Commission considers that, after eliminating defects aircraft suitable for combat operations "(the act of commission).

30/06/1944, the 246th IAP goes to the front with 34 "Hurricane" (augmented KX461 and 423, the latter, however, was left at the airport because of the Terrible damage the engine). By early July, the regiment arrived at their destination - the airfield Omgovichi (Bobruisk district), in the 215-th IBP 16th VA.

Later on, oddly enough, "Hurricanes" IID almost made a single combat (that is associated with the military operations against the enemy air or ground) departure! And even if it did, it would not be able to catch up with even the Ju-88!

Vreede com. 246 IAP Major Troshin
Iskh.156 from 30.07.1944, the commander of 215 IBP

Donoshu that the plane "Hurricane" IID, being in the arsenal Regiment, on its flight characteristics are not consistent with those listed in those. description 1942

Haprimer:

    Horizontal velocity at the ground according to 427 km / h, in fact, 220 miles / hour (356 km / h).

    When in battle turn teh.opisanii said "climb 610 meters", in reality - 450-500 m

    Altitude of 1,000 m at a speed of 240 km / hour dials for 4-5 minutes.

    The aircraft is armed with two guns "Vickers" 40 mm and 2 machine guns "Browning" 7.7 mm.

I believe that the plane "Hurricane" IID as a fighter for Flight characteristics is outdated and backward compared to our modern fighters. How to attack can not be tested due to the lack of armor, ie Armor placed behind the pilot and the engine on the hood 4 mm, which penetrated by rifles and machine at a distance of 70-80 m ask for your application to a higher command of the regiment on the re-modern domestic planes.

Troshin (signature).

Engineer Regiment "crushed" by the authorities for its line: Art. Engineer Squadron 246 IAP Akulichev Omgovichi

Deputy. Commander 215 IAD to IAS

REPORT

Airplanes "Hurricane" IID, adopted in October 1943, 246th IAP of 25 ZAP Zakfronta, in the following states:

    Lack of data in the forms is unknown Year aircraft and engines, resource.

    Ha all aircraft violated paint the fuselage and bottom surfaces.

    There decay plain cover on all aircraft.

    Due to the difference of the atmospheric conditions is lagging percale from the fuselage stringers.

    The propeller wood, like Rotolo, at the ends of the blades are many potholes and cracks, which are embedded with brass ferrules, which violates the weight symmetry.

    Rubber wheels has a lot of cuts.

    Because of the time of operation of onboard batteries and a large number of recent zaryadok lost capacity and provide not only the launch of the electric motor, but even from the manual mechanics (grip - VR).

    Battery airfield to run motors and there was not, which complicates the motors start in group missions.

    Radio communication may keep at a distance of 10-15 km from the earth, and between aircraft in the air is absent.

    Motors have gained an average of 50-95 hours, spare not.

    Aircraft clock type Smith in the amount of 10 units. completely useless, others work intermittently. Further operation is necessary, replace the paint on the fuselage and consoles, batteries, spark plugs, clock radio.

Until the paper went to the chain of command, the personnel of "finishing off" materiel: 15/07/1944 was scrapped KX463, 468 and 864.

Ended the history of the Soviet "Hurricane" IID airfield Malashevichi. 08/10/1944 Here, the 246th IAP was ordered to be retrained in the Yak-1. Ha, the joys 12/08/1944 Vreede regiment commander, Major Troshin shattered KX232, and subordinates - KX169 and HW722.

On 08.28.1944, the regiment began to get "Yaki" and by September 1 was comprised of 9 Yak-1, 1 Yak-7U, 1 Po-2 and 22 "Hurricane" IID, however, all the guns, "Vickers" is August 18 were put into storage. September 17th Regiment finished upgrading the Yak-1. "Xarrikeyny" IID KX140, 175, 231, 420. 462, 465 written off; KX165, 167, 230, 293, 294, 297, 298, 301, 303, 415. 418, 461, 466, 865, HW724 and KW773 put in repair, as fit for use. Some of them are planned to be the 286 th IAD (airport Brest).

Hesostoyavshiysya debut "Hurricane" IID in the Soviet Air Force - the best answer to the questions discussed in the press relating to the practice of the Lend-Lease (in particular, with the British supply).

So, how modern and high quality aircraft received the Soviet Air Force from England? Response to the reports of command 246-IAP, they do not change anything.

On the other hand, whether operated aircraft received? Yes no way! Haprimer, unqualified service just fine coffin aircraft engines. In teh.opisanii "Merlin" XX said: fuel - gasoline with an octane rating of 100, the oil - high purity, cooling - a mixture of distilled water and ethylene glycol (7:3). In fact, for the entire period of operation in the 25th ZAP "Merlin" 100-octane gasoline, and "no sniff"! Flights took place on the B-78 or a mixture of B-78 and B-70. Ha front "Hurricane" flew on a mixture of B-100 and B-70. Oil - the usual MS, often with scale and other solids. That was the real reason for failure, malfunction, "fire rods" and the shortage of power.

Maybe methodically operation of these machines has been properly prepared? Either. The tests were not preceded, and were almost parallel to the development of a regiment parade, but the time was more than enough. Identified in tests positive aspects (eg, a 40-mm gun can pierce any armor, including the heaviest German tanks) were not communicated to the pilots.

By 'wwod screws' I presume they mean the compressed wood composite propeller blades, trade name 'Jablo'
I have read reports of VVS units having problems with Spitfire using prop blades made of the same material.
by 'percale' I presume this refers to the linen fabric used on the rear fuselage.

HTH
T
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Graham Boak
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« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2013, 02:20:43 PM »

That's a very interesting document, but (for me at least) does rather suffer in the translation.  Surely no-one was seriously considering a Mk.IID as a fighter in 1944?  I would also question the term "division", for I understand a regiment (a sub-unit of a division) to be closer to an RAF squadron.

It seems as though Churchill was thinking of a gap in operations after the end of the fighting in Africa, so these aircraft were available as some time would elapse before they would be needed.  Although the RAF came to place its faith in the less accurate but far less vulnerable rocket, this decision is unlikely to have finalised before the offer of the Mk.IIDs, witness the equipment of 184 Sq with this type in the UK.  My understanding is that the Mk.IID was limited to 2 squadrons in the desert, 6 RAF and 7 SAAF  (although what should be a good source states four), 184 Sq in the UK and one (20 Sq?) in the Far East.  It was considered under-armoured and losses were high.  Although German AA may have been less on the Russian Front than in Normandy, it seems unlikely to have been less than in Africa.  

After the victory in North Africa and its lessons had been absorbed, gunship Hurricane operations were largely in the hands of the armoured Mk.IV, and eventually restricted to one squadron in the Far East.  The RAF had come to place its faith in the less accurate but far less vulnerable rocket - it would be surprising if the VVS had not come to the same opinion, at least as far as unarmoured aircraft were concerned.

The Mk.IID sent to Russia were not removed from service squadrons (which would not have totalled 60 aircraft anyway) but were new build, handed over in May 1943.  There are several aircraft, at least 11, in these batches recorded as lost at sea, which presumably accounts for the majority of the shortfall in numbers.

I understand that the RR Historical Group have produced a monograph describing the problems of the Merlin in Russia.
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John Thompson
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« Reply #8 on: March 20, 2013, 02:37:34 PM »

I understand that the RR Historical Group have produced a monograph describing the problems of the Merlin in Russia.

That could make interesting reading in comparison with what's been published about the Airacobra and its Allison V-1710:

"In addition to combat employment, the Airacobra I served for a long time as "guinea pigs" at NII VVS Red Army. Two Cobras from the very first party, AH628 and AH644, went into the institute in May 1942 immediately after completion of government testing. They never were able to "take a rest". From the beginning of mass exploitation reports about exposed hidden defects began to emerge from the horn of plenty. In most cases the engine failed, either upon takeoff or during combat. For example, in the 19th Guards IAP, there was one catastrophic failure and four accidents in the first two weeks; in the 153d IAP, one catastrophic failure and one accident. At first everyone blamed the Allison, in general a decent, light, and powerful engine that did not, however, want to work on Soviet-refined oils. It was real "picky", however, only at the beginning, and not without reason. After filtration, which removed dross and other debris, the Allison stopped "self destructing". Another defect required a great amount of investigation, the so-called "throwing of rods". This allegedly occurred when because of frequent running at the engine's operating limits (without which, of course, aerial combat was unthinkable) the aforementioned parts broke loose, came through the crankcase and destroyed everything in their path, in particular the control rods. A number of flight and laboratory tests were undertaken which enabled the test engineers to recommend the most favorable operating regimes of the engine to combat pilots, and succeeded in reducing the level of this type of failure."

From this page:
http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/articles/romanenko/p-39/index.htm

John

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Troy Smith
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« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2014, 03:03:33 AM »

 
While not a 246 IAD IID, I ran across this picture by chance today, which I've never seen before.



from here - http://www.ram-home.com/ram-old/hurricane-2d.html

I'm wondering if this a NII VVS photo?


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KL
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« Reply #10 on: October 07, 2014, 05:27:48 PM »

The photo was taken at NII VVS during the tests in December 1943:






from:http://alternathistory.org.ua/ispytano-v-sssr-istrebitel-shturmovik-hawker-hurricane-iid
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Troy Smith
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« Reply #11 on: October 20, 2014, 03:02:58 AM »

very interesting Konstantin, sorry, only just noticed your reply.
the link has some great detail photos, things I have not seen in any Hurricane books, like the broken down 40mm cannon and the firing controls.

I found this while browsing for something else, but worth adding here, even though of the RAF it shows a lot of detail on the 40mm cannons I'd not seen before.

Quote
WW2 RAF hawker Hurricane 2D desert tank busters
2x 40mm cannon mounted under wing. firing 6lb shells
armourers loading ammo +pilots flying low level.
footage of tanks being destroyed during range live firing


I've not seen if before, interestingly shows 6 Sq 'flying tin opener' badge on nose and the loading of the guns is fascinating, shells loaded individually into the drum, I'd always presumed it was a drum that got changed.

Not clear enough to make out serials or codes, though it's late and I didn't look to closely.   Presume better quality exists somewhere.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ix5xN8hlGLo

cheers
T
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barneybolac
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« Reply #12 on: October 20, 2014, 04:17:17 AM »

Found this video of a RAF 5 squadron in the SEAC. The video if you get it is very clear compared to the online version.

Serial number HV874.

http://www.awm.gov.au/collection/F02135/
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