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Author Topic: Suchov's p-39 White 50  (Read 75260 times)
Massimo Tessitori
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« on: February 11, 2013, 10:15:50 PM »

Hi Misos, hi all,


Nice image. Any considerations about the camouflage?

Quote
http://And based on the photos above and the following photo (photographed in USA, e.g. no reason for red tail tip):
Is this confirmed by other photos? The light seems too sharp, and it's not a fabric-covered part where it could be caused by an internal strut. Maybe the plane had a colored tip anyway?
Regards
Massimo
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2013, 10:16:53 PM »

Quote
Nice image. Any considerations about the camouflage?
That P-39 seems to be overpainted (apparent around/bellow cockpit, no serial numbers...). This profile shows repainted areas nicely although I am not sure about colors:






Here we can see Pokryshkin standing on the wing of Suchov's P-39 during "highway exercise":


Regards,
     66misos
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2013, 10:17:54 PM »

Hi Misos, this is very interesting. The thing of the tail looks really a matter of curvature.
Plane n.50 is extremely interesting too, I think that the profile is oversimplified because there are darker blotches over the nose, well visible on photos. It's likely that the rear was repainted with some Soviet color, probably green.
Regards
Massimo
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2013, 10:18:41 PM »

Hi Massimo,
on scalemodels.ru I found another images of Suchov's P-39:




Plus there were info:
1.) after rear fuselage was reinforced in SU, it was repainted by available green (usually AMT-4),
2.) AMT-4 was developed (from green tonality point of view) from 4BO. They both looked (very) similarly when freshly painted. This is interesting when looking for "available/on hand" green paint to overpaint blue or white circles under the red stars on P-39s.

regards,
     66misos
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2013, 10:19:19 PM »

Hi Misos,
to tell the truth, I think that this profile doesn't resembe to the plane as shown in the photos.
The information that it was modified on its rear fuselage and then repainted green is sure, or an interpretation only?
I can't see the second image you have posted.
Regards
Massimo
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2013, 10:20:00 PM »

Hi Massimo,
...I think that this profile doesn't resembe to the plane as shown in the photos.
The information that it was modified on its rear fuselage and then repainted green is sure, or an interpretation only?
I can't see the second image you have posted.

Here are pictures I found at scalemodels.ru:




Information that it was modified on its rear fuselage and then repainted green is only interpretation based on similar info from scalemodels.ru, related to your:
...It's likely that the rear was repainted with some Soviet color, probably green.
I have not found confirming info about specifically Sukhov's P-39 yet. I probably find something in his memoirs.

Massimo, would it be worth to make new topic e.g. "P-39 Sukhov" and move there all these Suchov related posts and not mix/lost them in this Pokryshkin topic? I would like to stay focused on Pokryshkin in this Pokryshkin thread Wink

Regards,
     66misos
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2013, 10:22:07 PM »

Hi,
I've done. Unfortunately the 'split' doesn't fun well in mixed posts, so I've made a new one and copy-pasted the parts on Suchov's plane.
Only, it is funny because it looks that I answer to myself.
Regards
Massimo
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2013, 10:27:14 PM »

AMT-4 was a nitro varnish and nitro varnishes were primarily developed for fabric.  AMT paints were used on metal planes only if surfaces were primed first.
Oil paints were developed specially for metal planes, so P-39s were probably repainted with oil paints. A-24m was more likely used instead of AMT-4.  Even 4BO is more likely than nitro AMT-4.

There is no AMT-4 on P-39 displayed in Finland.

Regards,
KL
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2013, 10:28:55 PM »

Hi KL,
AMT-4 was a nitro varnish and nitro varnishes were primarily developed for fabric.  AMT paints were used on metal planes only if surfaces were primed first.
Oil paints were developed specially for metal planes, so P-39s were probably repainted with oil paints. A-24m was more likely used instead of AMT-4.  Even 4BO is more likely than nitro AMT-4...

Of course, A-24m is also possibility.
However, photos show that overpainting was not done on metal but on more-less "primed" surface - original US primer + Olive Drab + Blue/White paint. From modeller point of view is important that he will/should get very similar results regardless he uses AKAN AMT-4 or 4BO.
I mentioned AMT-4 because unit had previously MiGG-3, I-16 and Yaks so in spring/summer 1943 they still could have some spare AMT-4 on stock. 4BO was used for military vehicles etc. so it could also be on hands. And no new Russian paints delivery would be necessary, at least at the beginning, during hectic Kuban campaign.
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KL
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« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2013, 07:44:37 PM »



USAF Dark Green over Olive Drab scheme was very different then drawings and profiles above.  Dark Green patches were always applied along leading and drailing adges - the idea was to brake-up planes outline.  In its original form, Dark Gren patches were actually shaped as wedges (can't find any photos  Embarrassed)



AFAIK, this scheme hasn't been used on P-39s.  So, Suhov's P-39 doesn't have anything in common with USAAF's DG over OD.

All Soviet P-39s were supposed to have their tails modified i.e. strengthened in mid/late 1944.  This was done after several planes were lost due to poor stall characteristics and their weak tails.  More on P-39 stall problems and tail modifications at http://www.airpages.ru/uk/p39_2.shtml

"В конструкторском бюро Центральной научно-эксплуатационной базы (ЦНЭБ) ВВС инженер М.С.Малков разработал методику подкрепления набора в хвостовой части. Опытный самолет переделали и испытали в НИИ ВВС. Вслед за этим доработку ?Аэрокобр? развернули непосредственно в полках. Только в ПВО таким образом переделали 326 самолетов. В различных частях по собственной инициативе вносили в планер истребителя другие усиления. Так, в 273-й дивизии ставили накладки на лонжероны стабилизатора."

P-39 now in Buffalo Museum had its tail strengtened.

HTH,
KL
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KL
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« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2013, 08:04:46 PM »

Of course, A-24m is also possibility.
However, photos show that overpainting was not done on metal but on more-less "primed" surface - original US primer + Olive Drab + Blue/White paint. From modeller point of view is important that he will/should get very similar results regardless he uses AKAN AMT-4 or 4BO.
I mentioned AMT-4 because unit had previously MiGG-3, I-16 and Yaks so in spring/summer 1943 they still could have some spare AMT-4 on stock. 4BO was used for military vehicles etc. so it could also be on hands. And no new Russian paints delivery would be necessary, at least at the beginning, during hectic Kuban campaign.

Primed means yellow ALG-1 first.  This has not been seen on wrecks, usually it's one coat of Olive Green


If this was AMT-4 it probably would not survive...  Oil/alkyd paints are harder and more resistant to weathering.

Yes, it's true; 4BO, AMT-4 and A-24m should look the same on plastic models.

HTH,
KL 
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KL
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« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2013, 11:11:36 PM »

More about P-39 at Buffalo Museum at http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/articles/sheppard/p39/index.htm

Quote
During testing and combat reports, the one thing the Soviets were discovering was that the P39 suffered a structural weakness of the rear fuselage. After thorough testing, the Soviet LII (Flight Research Institute) and TsAGI (Central Aero and Hydrodynamic Institute) recommended a number of improvements to be undertaken at repair workshops from mid 1944.

These were recorded as: -
Defect and modification. - Twisting of rear fuselage and skin deformation.
All Q models up to and including the Q21 to have the following.
a. Two additional skins around radio compartment hatches.
b. fuselage longeron reinforcing member
c. two supports to forward tailplane spar attachment joints
d. two plates to reinforce the port forward fuselage beam.

Items a and c are clearly visible on ?White 23?. These skins have been added over the red star and have covered segments of it. Whether or not it was deemed important, the star was not repainted.

All Q series models were to have the following work undertaken to the fin.
a. reinforce fin leading edge with additional skin.
b. add third fin/fuselage attachment point.
c. reinforce the forward and rear post with additional profiles.
d. additional plates at the middle of the rudder hinge.

Items a and b were also visible on ?White 23?. The starboard skin of the fin was unrivetted and removed. The third attachment was added and refitted along with the additional leading edge skin. On completion the starboard skin to the fin was resprayed masking out the number, again visible in the photos.

additional skins around radio compartment hatches are visible below.  Additional alluminum sheetmetal is dark "protective green", maybe 3B Huh

from  http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/woooo-found-my-new-volunteer-job-p-39-airacobra-inside-192214-2.html
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66misos
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Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.


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« Reply #12 on: February 15, 2013, 11:04:51 AM »

Hi Massimo,
thank you for creating new thread about Sukhov's P-39.
I was a couple days without PC so I write only now.

Hi KL,
I am happy with your statement Wink:
Quote
Yes, it's true; 4BO, AMT-4 and A-24m should look the same on plastic models.

Quote
USAF Dark Green over Olive Drab scheme was very different then drawings and profiles above. Dark Green patches were always applied along leading and drailing edges - the idea was to brake-up planes outline.  In its original form, Dark Gren patches were actually shaped as wedges (can't find any photos  )
Yes, I saw this always on the "big" planes, e.g. DC-3, B-17 etc., but never on fighters.

Here are some photos of P-39 rear fuselage reinforcement found on scalemodels.ru http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic_t_17216.html:




and some interesting thought from that forum:
"...it seems that USAF marking and white circle (+red star) was painted still in US. And then, after reinforced tail it was painted dark green... This analysis is based on the real plane, not on photos."

"USAF marking was overpainted still in US by probably a green zinc chromate:"


And here are some possible AKAN colors posted by Akan:

Akan:
"...I prefer option it (lighter green) was interior green (№ 82 004 - the image № 204), as it is the most light-green with a characteristic expression of the yellow component. The second one (darker), I also took from the American palette, and in my opinion is number 82015 (on the image number 215).
Why I rejected the AMT-4? Generally, it was decently darker and more brown. And I did not find an analogy with "dark green" in our colors. I do my conclusion that they were native American paints. Lighter green - interior green (№ 82004/204), and the second (darker green) - although I never saw it on the planes, but still in tone and brightness is very similar to the Army Green (№ 82015/215)."


regards,
     66misos
« Last Edit: February 15, 2013, 11:33:58 AM by 66misos » Logged

Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #13 on: February 15, 2013, 01:45:56 PM »

Hi Misos, hi KL,
was this streghtening work made in Soviet Union? Wh knows if US supplied escorts of their paints to Soviets? If so, the strange camouflage of Suchov's plane could include more US colors apart for the OD.
It seems that P-39 in Soviet service were repainted with dark green in late 1944. It appears very dark on photos. I wonder if it was simply fresh Soviet green, or what else. 
P-63s look very dark even in US service, do you know if the easily fading US OD was replaced by a better paint?
Regards
Massimo
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66misos
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Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.


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« Reply #14 on: February 15, 2013, 03:14:15 PM »

Hi Massimo,

that strenghtening work was made in US, in Bell factory according to the Soviet (CAGI) recommendations. Only at very beginning it was done in SU as kind of improvisation.
P-39s were delivered with kind of service pack (I do not know exact military terminology) including spare parts and paints. So Olive Drab was real possibility also in SU not only during the initial delivery, but also in later service. However, everything depended on concrete condition in concrete unit in concrete time.
I have no exact info whether easily fading US OD was replaced by a better (soviet?) paint as a general rule. There were several discussions about it also at scalemodels.ru. There are different opinions, including "painted with anything on hand", "why waste time/effort/material to overpaint complete plane if only a (repaired) part was necessary" etc. Basically very practical and effective approach.

As already "educated" (KL, thank you Wink) that e.g. red color can appears like anything from almost white to almost black on b/w photos I do not rely on them. If no other clear proof exists, I (as a modeller) will (at least now) go for faded OD combined with fresh OD over white/blue circles and  probably some Russian paints for other repaintings. At least overall green surface without red spinner/tail tip will not be so homogeneous and visually more attractive.

Regards,
    66misos
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