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Author Topic: Suchov's p-39 White 50  (Read 72899 times)
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #15 on: February 15, 2013, 07:05:05 PM »

Hi Misos,
seeing at that piece of rear fuselage, it could be that Suchov has utilized the same colors with a deliberate disruptive purpose. So, his plane could have a light green, olive drab and dark green painting, whatever is the origin of the paint. 
Regards
Massimo
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KL
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« Reply #16 on: February 15, 2013, 08:02:46 PM »

that strengthening work was made in US, in Bell factory according to the Soviet (CAGI) recommendations. Only at very beginning it was done in SU as kind of improvisation.

Hmmm...  Huh  Have you read text at  http://www.airpages.ru/uk/p39_2.shtml ? Huh

Bell engineers went to Soviet Union to collect evidence in late fall 1943.
Pilots in service units were killed/injured in stall accidents in 1944.  B. Glinka was injured in such an accident in July 1944.
Official instructions regarding C.G. limits were issued in spring 1944.

More details about P-39 stall problems and structural weakness at http://pro-samolet.ru/samolet-usa/63-istrebiteli/246-usa-istrebitel?start=12

Most important piece of info there: Не осталась в стороне и сама фирма "Белл". На поздних сериях модификации Q существенно усилили хвостовую часть фюзеляжа и ввели установку балласта в носу фюзеляжа.

Only late P-39Q were modified/strengthened by Bell...  Remaining P-39s were modified by Soviets.

Buffalo Museum P-39 had its rear fuselage modified by Soviets in August 1944.  This is clearly explained at http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/articles/sheppard/p39/index.htm
Dark green parts below are Soviet modifications


IMHO, dark green is a Soviet paint - it could be anything, even ALG-5 primer (which would be more logical than other dark green paints).

P-39s were delivered with kind of service pack (I do not know exact military terminology) including spare parts and paints. So Olive Drab was real possibility also in SU not only during the initial delivery, but also in later service.

US aviation paints in Soviet Union - Very interesting, but we need at least a single piece of evidence for this.  Any documents?  any wrecks?
Without evidence it is still a guess (you may call it a hypothesis).

Regards,
KL
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KL
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« Reply #17 on: February 15, 2013, 08:39:20 PM »

more about versions and production numbers here: http://www.airvectors.net/avp39.html#m3

Only P-39Q-25 and P-39Q-30 had tails modified at the factory. Those were two last P-39 versions in production
P-39Q-25 had 4-blade propeller, very distinctive sub-type. 700 P-39Q-25 plus 400 P-39Q-30 were made.

1100 out of 4905 P-39Q made, had tails modified by Bell.

HTH,
KL 
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66misos
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Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.


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« Reply #18 on: February 16, 2013, 11:28:53 AM »

Hi KL,
thanx for additional info about types/numbers of strengthened P-39s. As I can rely only on published info (books, posts, etc.) it is another brick to the overall mosaic. Smiley

I do not want to argue, you are right that a lot of info posted here and in Pokryshkin thread are only hypothesis but:

P-39s were delivered with kind of service pack (I do not know exact military terminology) including spare parts and paints. So Olive Drab was real possibility also in SU not only during the initial delivery, but also in later service.

US aviation paints in Soviet Union - Very interesting, but we need at least a single piece of evidence for this.  Any documents?  any wrecks?
Without evidence it is still a guess (you may call it a hypothesis).

Here http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1367.msg10588#msg10588 I wrote:
"V. Roman in his book Airacobras over Kuban writes, that there was a big airplane assembling factory in Abadan built by Douglas in line with USAF order.
Red stars painted in Abadan were in line with rules, e.g. with the thin (1cm) black outline. But blue circles were repainted rather sloppy, often with British or Russian paints, which did not match original US Olive Drab and Neutral Grey? So often blue circles were kept, red stars with black outline over them. The planes were flown to 25ZAP in Adji-Kabul after repainting.
But sometimes planes were flown from Abadan to Adji-Kabul with original USAF stars. In such cases the final look of the stars and circles strongly depended on the taste of the 25ZAP technical staff?"

My understanding is that in Abadan (e.g. in Soviet Union) in Douglas facility they used US paints to repaint US marking. And if for any reasons US paints were not available then often British or Russian paints were used. Or kept unpainted. May be I am wrong. Undecided

IMHO, dark green is a Soviet paint - it could be anything, even ALG-5 primer (which would be more logical than other dark green paints).

For me is important that there is additional possible paint. Original idea of single "boring" Olive Drab changes to idea of relatively "colorfull" surface - faded/weathered OD, fresh OD, Green Zinc Chromate, A-24m, 4BO, AMT-4 and probably also another green colors.

Regards,
     66misos
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KL
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« Reply #19 on: February 16, 2013, 06:03:24 PM »


Hi Missos,  Smiley

This question:  "Did US and Britain supply aviation paints to SSSR within L-L?" is frustrating and irritating...

30-40 years ago it was taken for granted that Russians didn't have aviation paints (tractor pains were good enough), that they didn't have idea what is camouflage and that British Green and Brown camouflage scheme was common on Yaks and LaGGs.

It has been proven that nothing said above was true.

Now you are proposing a "reduced hypothesis":  Few cans of US paints did arrive with each P-39....

I don't know, it's suspicious - I would like to see some evidence.  Grin

Regards,
KL

 
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66misos
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« Reply #20 on: February 16, 2013, 07:02:46 PM »

Hi KL,
To make things clear, I do not want to generate some strange reduced hypothesis. Wink
I posted ideas from scalemodels.ru, polemic is also there and today.

I try to assemble mosaic from as much as possible infomations - to find possible colors used for overpaintings on P-39s to make kit of Pokryshkin's and/or Sukhov's P-39 maximaly realistic. I really do not want to invent some new "tractor olive drab". Wink
I continue searching.

Regards,
     66misos
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66misos
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« Reply #21 on: February 18, 2013, 10:25:25 AM »

Hi,
when looked at pictures of Sukhov's P-39 I realized that he had to like that national marking pretty much. Smiley
Rear part of the fuselage of his P-39 is completely overpainted, even no serial numbers on the tail are visible. And that overpainting has soft edges, e.g. it was sprayed, not handbrushed.

Regardless his P-39 was reinforced or it underwent some structural repair/maintenance, following overpainting had to affect original red stars in white circle:
     
More pictures on http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/photogallery/p39q/p39q_1.htm.

Despite the valid rules/orders defining appearance of Soviet national marking, Sukhov let either mask (=protect) original marking or repaint it in original way. Note red star is bit smaller than white circle, it does not fit it so precisely as on the original "Bell" marking:


It shows again that orders for painting were one thing and let's say "personal approach" was often something different.
Regards,
     66misos
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #22 on: February 18, 2013, 02:46:48 PM »

Hi Misos,
the repainting on the rear fuselage really follows the reinforcemen, so it is credible that the light color on the fuselage is faded olive drab and the repainting dark green. The color on the nose still gives the impression to be lighter.
Regards
Massimo
« Last Edit: February 18, 2013, 03:52:44 PM by Massimo Tessitori » Logged
66misos
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« Reply #23 on: February 18, 2013, 05:17:27 PM »

Hi Massimo,
do you also see the grey color above the head of the person standing to the right and on the tail a bit darker then grey further to the right, but still lighter then the very dark grey covering reinforcement on this photo?


Three green colors: 1.) light grey = faded original OD, 2.) medium grey = older blotches of some (Russian) green and 3.) dark grey = green paint (same but newer or even different Russian paint) covering reinforcement?  Huh

Regards,
    66misos
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #24 on: February 18, 2013, 08:57:02 PM »

Hi Misos,

the lighter color on the nose gives the idea to have been painted as last one, look at the rounded shape of the blotches. I suppose that they tested both dark green and light brown (AMT-1 or A-21M) as matches to repaint the faded olive drab, the pilot was pleased with the result and used both colors obtaining a camouflage.
My guess is that the medium color is the original OD, and the lighter one is brown.
Regards
Massimo
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Ohotnyik
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« Reply #25 on: February 18, 2013, 09:17:32 PM »

Hello!
This is one of my all time favourite plane, and I know that sooner or later I will build it.
We had a lot of arquement, conversation about it?s colors.
I know of only one command, that might help you.
The Lendlease planes had to be painted int he AMT 11-12  after reapair, since 1943.
I have huge suspcion,that beside the OD , there was some of the AMT grey paint used.
It depends on wether we take the darker or lighter shade of paint to be the original OD.
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #26 on: February 18, 2013, 09:45:50 PM »

Hi Ohotnyik,
I've seen photos of two lend-lease planes only almost with the grey-grey camo: a P-47 razorback and a P-40 converted into twoseater.  If you have other ones, I'm greatly interested.
It is possible that they have used some grey on the nose of the P-39, AMT-11 is close enough to US neutral grey and a grey nose would have been useful in air superiority missions. I am convinced that the colors on the rear fuselage are dark green and olive drab as on the wreck.
Regards
Massimo
« Last Edit: February 18, 2013, 11:25:11 PM by Massimo Tessitori » Logged
KL
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« Reply #27 on: February 19, 2013, 01:33:01 AM »

Hi Misos/Massimo,
the plane is a mystery, but IMHO, no need to make up fiction:
Despite the valid rules/orders defining appearance of Soviet national marking, Sukhov let either mask (=protect) original marking or repaint it in original way.

...It shows again that orders for painting were one thing and let's say "personal approach" was often something different.
...they tested both dark green and light brown (AMT-1 or A-21M) as matches to repaint the faded olive drab, the pilot was pleased with the result and used both colors obtaining a camouflage.

In general, except for commanders, VVS pilots did not have "personal" planes.  They flew what was available.  Actually mechanics were responsible for individual planes, not pilots...

Even if Sukhov prefered white discs over official VVS markings, would he really insist on white discs and risk a trouble?  Was Suhov authorized to conduct hypothetical camouflage tests??  All that in spring 1945 when war end was close?

"Flying Cyrcus" composed of pilots flying colorfull planes and fighting their own wars for score only was absolutelly unacceptable for VVS.  Distinctive, personal planes were actually extremelly rare in VVS combat regiments.

IMHO, photo and movie clip only show (i.e. confirm) that some P-39s retained white discs while in combat regiments and practically untill the end of the war.

IMHO, different colours seen on this plane are more likely related to structural modifications and repairs than to (unknown Huh) camouflage experiments.

IMHO, only if completely overhauled, this plane would be overpainted in standard "Gray-Dark Gray Scheme".  In this case it would have had standard Red Stars also, not American Transit stars in white discs.

HTH,
KL
« Last Edit: February 19, 2013, 01:47:45 AM by KL » Logged
mholly
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« Reply #28 on: February 19, 2013, 06:49:46 AM »

Hi Misos/Massimo,
the plane is a mystery, but IMHO, no need to make up fiction:
Despite the valid rules/orders defining appearance of Soviet national marking, Sukhov let either mask (=protect) original marking or repaint it in original way.

...It shows again that orders for painting were one thing and let's say "personal approach" was often something different.
...they tested both dark green and light brown (AMT-1 or A-21M) as matches to repaint the faded olive drab, the pilot was pleased with the result and used both colors obtaining a camouflage.
Nicely wraped up.
Btw sent you e-mail recently.
Pozdrav,
Mario

In general, except for commanders, VVS pilots did not have "personal" planes.  They flew what was available.  Actually mechanics were responsible for individual planes, not pilots...

Even if Sukhov prefered white discs over official VVS markings, would he really insist on white discs and risk a trouble?  Was Suhov authorized to conduct hypothetical camouflage tests??  All that in spring 1945 when war end was close?

"Flying Cyrcus" composed of pilots flying colorfull planes and fighting their own wars for score only was absolutelly unacceptable for VVS.  Distinctive, personal planes were actually extremelly rare in VVS combat regiments.

IMHO, photo and movie clip only show (i.e. confirm) that some P-39s retained white discs while in combat regiments and practically untill the end of the war.

IMHO, different colours seen on this plane are more likely related to structural modifications and repairs than to (unknown Huh) camouflage experiments.

IMHO, only if completely overhauled, this plane would be overpainted in standard "Gray-Dark Gray Scheme".  In this case it would have had standard Red Stars also, not American Transit stars in white discs.

HTH,
KL
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #29 on: February 19, 2013, 07:15:52 AM »

Hi,
could be that the plane was simply retouched instead of intentionally camouflaged, however part of repaintings are certainly dark green, while the closer soviet color that resembled to faded olive drab while being lighter was the light brown. This gives a strong indication for that color.
The choice to restore the white disk when this was partially covered by the reinforcing strut is strange indeed and seems to indicate the deliberate will to preserve it while the other planes of the unit had it deleted.
Regards
Massimo
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