Suchov's p-39 White 50

[KL]

Hi Misos,
interesting discussion, some useful information, but also a lot of personal preferences.

"US paints were not supplied" was an important statement! It was posted by V. Romanenko, the author of P-39 books and expert on land-lease.  His insistance on German paints is only a guess, though.

My preference is still Army 4BO.  It was available everywhere, even today surplus is used for Modern Arts:




Cheers,
KL 

[learstang]

Konstantin, those photographs are actually quite interesting.  They show the variety of 4BO, according to age, fadeing, etc.  They seem to cover most of the various interpretations I've seen of AMT-4.

Regards,

Jason

[Massimo Tessitori]

Interesting artwork.
The colors of the helmets (and of tubes) are the original ones, and I suppose that the variability in shade is forthemost due to fading and traces of rust that change according to the state of conservation of each helmet.
Artists seem to have added only pink, blue and vivid colors.
However, seems that the original shade of most helmets  and other parts is consistent enough.
Romanenko... maybe he is writing some books utilizing unpublished interviews?
Regards
Massimo

[66misos]

hi KL,
thanx for nice pictures  and V.Romanenko identification. Do you know who is Alex? He is the first among Top5 writers on that forum.

Here it is 1:1 for AMT-1 light brown and 4BO green. They excluded brown on that Russian Airforce forum. So at least statistically 4BO seems to be more probable for upper surface. But what paint for undersurface, if not Russian and US paints? German light blue RLM-76?

     66misos

[KL]

thanx for nice pictures  and V.Romanenko identification. Do you know who is Alex? He is the first among Top5 writers on that forum.

No idea...  AIF member Alex sometimes signs his posts as Artyom, our forum member Olkor may know his full identity... 

Here it is 1:1 for AMT-1 light brown and 4BO green. They excluded brown on that Russian Airforce forum. So at least statistically 4BO seems to be more probable for upper surface. But what paint for undersurface, if not Russian and US paints? German light blue RLM-76?

IMHO, it was something as widely available as 4BO, nothing egzotic (German paints, US paints or maybe American paint captured by Germans?) 
For paints utilized by Red Army, You shoud check this text:  http://www.dshk.narod.ru/sovpaint.htm
Following is probably answer on your question:

Серо-дикая и серо-голубая масляные густотёртые краски представляют собой пасты, состоящие из смеси сухих пигментов, тщательно затёртых на натуральной олифе (или на олифе из тунгового масла). В состав красок входят следующие основные компоненты: белила цинковые или литопонные, охра, тяжёлый шпат, олифа натуральная или олифа комбинированная. Для подцветки краски (для подгонки цвета под утверждённый эталон) применяют пиролюзит или сажу, ультрамарин или милорь, железный сурик и кроны свинцовые.
Краски серо-дикая и серо-голубая в основном предназначаются для покрытия внешней поверхности снарядов крупных калибров с целью предохранения их от коррозии. До войны краска серо-голубая применялась для нанесения первого слоя, краска серо-дикая ? для нанесения второго слоя. Это делалось в основном для того, чтобы в процессе производства легче было узнать, нанесен ли второй слои или снаряд только загрунтован...

HTH,
KL

[Massimo Tessitori]

A small doubt: if they utilized a so common paint to repaint that nose (that looks so light in a lot of images from both sides), why, on bw photos, there are not evidences of so light repaintings on other P-39s, P-40s and other OD painted types ? It should be very common.
Regards
Massimo

[KL]

...why, on bw photos, there are not evidences of so light repaintings on other P-39s, P-40s and other OD painted types ?

You are looking for colour in b/w photos...

Do you have any examples of L-L planes that were extensively repaired like this particular P-39?  Repainted markings are probably a different case.

Regards,
KL

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi,
I am looking for shade contrast in bw photos. If contrast is visible in all the many images of that plane, it should be visible on other planes too. But, in all the photos of P-39s of Red Stars 4, there is no any other example of visible repainting (excluding the camouflaged planes of course).
Regards
Massimo

[66misos]

Hi,
I was o holiday without email and after my arrival I had to reinstall my NB, so I was a bit quite 
I browsed different Russian forums again and again and found interesting info - Russians had quite big problems with original fuel for Airacobras before end of the war due to too long distances from the front lines to up-country. Pokryshkin had to use all his authority and different "paperworks" to continue with training flights of his unit. And I guess the fuel deliveries had much higher priority than paint deliveries in the front units.

KL,
your Russian text is interesting, but it is (mainly) about paints used for big caliber shells painting/anticorrosion protection.

In the context:
- problems even with fuel, which is necessary to fly,
- the US paints were not supplied,
- the regiment was given a very limited amount of Soviet paint and spent it on small touch-up, not the camouflage (especially - nonstandard),
- 4BO protective green could available, but appropriate paint for underwings is missing,
- 4BO on the soviet helmets on the posted picture looks old and significantly weathered and corroded.
- the trophy German/Luftwaffe paints were available in large amounts,
- repainting on Sukhov's plane was quite fresh (1+ month old), without time enough to significantly weather,
- Sukhov's plane looks like no other L-L plane (known to me),
my personal preference tends for trophy German/Luftwaffe paints which at least for me seem to be a bit more probable than Russian paints.

      66misos

[KL]

your Russian text is interesting, but it is (mainly) about paints used for big caliber shells painting/anticorrosion protection.

Book is about anti-corrosion protection and it was written by an artillery officer.  Text is about paints in general:  it explains 4BO, camouflage paints etc.  You have to understand that in aviation the primary purpose of paint was to protect from corrosion.  At some times (early/mid war years) camouflage was seen as tactically important, in other times (end of war) it was neglected.

- 4BO protective green could available, but appropriate paint for underwings is missing,
- 4BO on the soviet helmets on the posted picture looks old and significantly weathered and corroded.

4BO was available for sure.  Sero-dikaya was also available - it was a general purpose anti-corrosion paint.  It was widely used in aviation: for example bombs were light gray-green.  I have seen pieces of light gray-green I-153 fabric.
As you have been told, aviation paints might have been scarce in front-line units.  Those were high quality paints and all production ended in aviation factories.  IMHO, it was different with general purpose paints; those paints were made in large quantities...  

- the trophy German/Luftwaffe paints were available in large amounts,
my personal preference tends for trophy German/Luftwaffe paints which at least for me seem to be a bit more probable than Russian paints.

Large amounts? Do you have any proofs?  There were shortages of all kinds in German aviation industry in 1945.  Some Me-262 were left unpainted.  After the war Soviets continued to use their nitro paints, they never bothered to copy German paints.

Cheers,
KL

[66misos]

Hi KL,
thanks for reply and interesting pointer at possible underwing paint:

Sero-dikaya was also available - it was a general purpose anti-corrosion paint.  It was widely used in aviation: for example bombs were light gray-green.

Do you mean paint posted at http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1086.msg7372#msg7372 ?







Color seems to be brighter than faded dirty Neutral Grey so it could agree with what is visible on Sukhov's P-39 (right) underwings.

So finally we have possible candidates for two approaches:
- Russian paints: protective 4B0 Green and Sero-dikaya, similar to "Slate Gray" or German "Feld Grau",
- Germain paints:  IMHO RLM 75 Medium Gray for Upper surfaces and RLM 76 Light Blue-Gray for Under surfaces (http://www.oncamouflagedwings.org/camo/index.htm, btw interesting article)

- the trophy German/Luftwaffe paints were available in large amounts,

Large amounts? Do you have any proofs?  There were shortages of all kinds in German aviation industry in 1945.  Some Me-262 were left unpainted.  After the war Soviets continued to use their nitro paints, they never bothered to copy German paints.

I have no proof, it was quoted from Russian forum. I think in this case it is not necessary to speak about large amounts. When looking at the screenshots from document reel showing Pokryshkin and other officers and P-39s at the big German airport:

surely there was not big problem to find enough German paints for one P-39. Of course, it is only IMHO.

However, without some new clear/hard evidence there is probably no definitive answer on question about colors on Sukhov's P-39. A bit latter I will make profiles of the both approaches, I am too busy in my work now. And we will see what future will bring. Updates are always possible

Regards,
    66misos

[Massimo Tessitori]

Sero-dikaya was also available - it was a general purpose anti-corrosion paint.  It was widely used in aviation: for example bombs were light gray-green.

I wonder if they had some other use for this color. Bombs were painted at the factory and utilized once, I don't see reason to have a color for bombs only in frontline units.
Regards
Massimo

[KL]

I wonder if they had some other use for this color. Bombs were painted at the factory and utilized once, I don't see reason to have a color for bombs only in frontline units.

Massimo, sero-dikaya wasn't used for bombs only (should be clear from "general purpose anti-corrosion paint").  Metal objects that didn't have to be painted in "protective colour" were painted in gray-green sero-dikaya.  For example, field artillery was painted in 4BO, fixed coastal baterries were painted in Sero-dikaya colour (sero-dikaya was used by VMF too).

When looking at the screenshots from document reel showing Pokryshkin and other officers and P-39s at the big German airport

Misos, Pokrishkin's regiment was based at Aslau airfield; check this link for more info http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=25063

Aslau (GER) (51 18 24 N ? 15 43 08 E)
General: operational airfield (Einsatzhafen) (today Osla) in Silesia in SE Germany, 32 km SSE of Sprottau, 32 km WNW of Liegnitz (Legnica), 12 km ENE of Bunzlau and 1.6 km SW of the village of Aslau (Osla). History: constructed between 1935 and 1938 as an Einsatzhafen I. Ordnung; first in use 1938-39. Used by school units throughout the war, but operational units not based there after September 1939 until October 1944. Dimensions: 1,100 x 825 meters. Runway: good grass surface with a perimeter taxiway encircling the landing area. Probably equipped for night landings. Infrastructure: had 1 very large assembly hangar (233 x 41 meters), 4 more very large hangars and 1 large repair hangar, all of which were fronted by concrete aprons and connected to the taxiway. A group of workshop and stores buildings were located in the hangar area, and there was a further group of workshops at the SE corner of the landing area. A small barracks complex was situated to the rear of the assembly hangar, and a block of admin buildings was along the airfield?s SW boundary. The Berlin-Breslau Autobahn paralleled the S boundry of the landing area at a distance of less than 1 kilometer and a branch rail line served the hangar area. Dispersal: none noted (8 Apr 44). Defenses: none noted (8 Apr 44).
Remarks: major development and building construction during the war for use as a factory and repair airfield. Focke-Wulf Fw 190 A-8 and A-9 production there by Weser Flugzeugbau GmbH beginning in 1943 to January 1945. Sub-camp Aslau of Koncentrationslager Gross-Rosen may have provided inmate labor at the airfield.
Air Units: (go to Google and enter: Aslau site:ww2.dk ). Also: III./KG z.b.V. 1 (Sep 39); KGr. z.b.V. 9 (Sep 39).
School Units: Arbeitsplatz for FFS C Sprottau, FFS C 4 then FFS B 4 (Nov 39 ? Jan 45).
Erg./Ers. Units: 4./Erg.JG 1 (Nov 44 ? Jan 45).
Station Commands: Fl.H.Kdtr. (E) 38 then Fl.H.Kdtr. E Aslau (Aug 39 ? c. Feb 40); Fl.H.Kdtr. E 18/IV (c. Feb ? Apr 40); Fl.Pl.Kdo. A 8/IV (1941 ? Mar 44); Flugplatzkdo. of Fl.H.Kdtr. A(o) 8/VIII Liegnitz (Apr 44 ? Apr 45).
Station Units (on various dates): none identified.

Con.Aslau deliveries are clearly and separately distinguished. They only show 10 x Fw 190 A-8 and 14 x D-9 being delivered from Con.Aslau in Jan-45.

It shouldn't be a problem to find what colours were used on Aslau built Fw-190D-9s 

HTH,
KL
 

[Massimo Tessitori]

Massimo, sero-dikaya wasn't used for bombs only (should be clear from "general purpose anti-corrosion paint").  Metal objects that didn't have to be painted in "protective colour" were painted in gray-green sero-dikaya.  For example, field artillery was painted in 4BO, fixed coastal baterries were painted in Sero-dikaya colour (sero-dikaya was used by VMF too).

But there are not particular reasons to suppose that they had availability of a color for second line duties, not used on their planes.

It shouldn't be a problem to find what colours were used on Aslau built Fw-190D-9s

I suppose they were hellgrau 76, braunviolett 81 and grun 83. The last one could be a candidate for the lighter parts on the nose.
http://www.militarymodelling.com/forums/postings.asp?th=20450

Regards
Massimo

[66misos]

Hi KL,
thank you for very interesting info and links. I browsed them, plus a number of additional links about Luftwaffe.
I did not find any direct bullet-proof evidence about paints used in Aslau. Here I would summarize info I found on all those pages, giving some hints about used paint:

http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/luftcamdb_3.htm
Evidence from all sources suggest (e.g. not confirm) names for paint numbers:
- 74 Graugr?n  
- 75 Grauviolett
- 76 either Lichtblau or Weissblau
- 81 Braunviolett (Brown-Violet)
- 82 Hellgr?n (Bright Green)
- 83 Dunkelgr?n (Dark Green)

August 15, 1944
83 Dunkelgr?n (Dark Green) replaced 74 Graugr?n without any alterations to the camouflage pattern.
Could the 75/83 scheme actually be a long-lived transition scheme from 74/75 to the later 81/82 colours? 75/83 scheme first appears on the Bf 109 and FW-190 fighters.

September 1944
75/83 scheme specified  for the FW-190 D-9.
First operational use of the Dora took place in early October 1944 with III./JG 54 whose aircraft were camouflaged in the 75/83 scheme?
However, a change occurred in the camouflage colors used in early 1945, from the standard 75/83 scheme to the 81/82 combination, and it is most probable that a variety of transition schemes existed (e.g., 81/83, 82/83, 75/81, etc.)

November 1944
Released by Focke-Wulf and approved by the RLM, designating the 'green' 81/82/76 camouflage scheme to be applied to the Ta 152 (C or H?). The colors were designated as "81" and "82", however, no descriptions of the colors were provided.
Photographic evidence strongly suggests that although the 81/82 scheme was applied to the Ta 152 H series, the Ta 152 C-1 aircraft were finished in the 75/83 scheme as worn by the FW-190 D-9.

December 1944
FW-190 D-9 "Black 12", WNr. 210079, which crashed from a low-level bird hit - The camouflage is a mottled on the fuselage, with the green predominating. The upper surfaces of the wings are a rather brighter green than is usual with German aircraft, whilst the undersides of the wings are light blue. The spinner is black with a white spiral.
good description for RLM 82 Hellgr?n. Regardless, by the end of the war, colour photos of late war Doras reveal them to have moved into the green 81/82 scheme

Chronology of Camouflage Schemes and Colours for Focke-Wulf
Date      ?Darker? Colour                 ?Lighter? Colour
??/09/44      Fw 190 D   83 (not given)   75 Grauviolett
??/10/44      Fw 190 A/F 83 (not given)   75 Grauviolett
??/12/44      Fw 190 D   82 Hellgr?n?   (no other colour?)
??/01/45      Fw 190 D   81 (not given)   82 (not given)


Focke-Wulf 190 A-8
350 151 ? 350 300   Aslau   07.44-09.44    150 planes / 3 months, e.g. 50 planes /month,  
350 851 ? 350 875   Aslau   10.44-10.44     25 planes / month,

Focke-Wulf 190 A-9 (D-9)
490 020 ? 490 050   Aslau   12.44-01.45            30 planes/2 months, e.g. 15 planes/month,
10 FW-190 A-8 and 14 D-9  Aslau      Jan-45                    24 planes / month

http://www.flickr.com/photos/23057174@N02/4256669125/in/set-72157610334641015
Fw 190 A-8 W.Nr. 350 210 "Gelbe 15", I./JG ?, built at Aslau in 1944.
60th plane of the serie, e.g. produced sometime in July/August 1944 ? camo scheme 74/75/76.

compare to:
http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aircraft-markings-camouflage/fw-190-a6-1-jg-54-nowotny-32033.html
D-FWJS (cn 990017) Flug Werk FW 190A-8/N by Andreas Zeitler - Flying-Wings
"Over its original gray camouflage, the fuselage and upper wing surfaces had been completely repainted in two new colours, a medium green, around the cockpit section and an olive green elsewhere, possibly the first experimental use of the colours 82 and 83. The tail section, however, was not recamouflaged??

SUMMARY:
- September 1944 - 75 Grauviolett /83 Dunkelgr?n (Dark Green) scheme for the Fw 190 D-9, replacing previous 74/75 scheme.
   First operational use of the Dora took place in early October 1944 with III./JG 54 whose aircraft were camouflaged in the 75/83 scheme?
- early 1945 - change from the standard 75/83 scheme to the 81 Braunviolett (Brown-Violet) /82 Hellgr?n (Bright Green) combination,
- it is most probable that a variety of transition schemes existed (e.g., 81/83, 82/83, 75/81, etc.).

Repanting on the sides and front fuselage of Sukhov's P-39 is noticeable brighter than faded Olive Drab from different angles and times, so it is not only matter of the fresh semi-gloss paint reflection - possible candidates are 75 Grauviolett or 82 Hellgr?n 82 (Bright Green).  81 Braunviolett or 83 Dunkelgr?n (Dark Green) are too darks. They could be good candidate for the nose repainting.
76 either Lichtblau or Weissblau seems to be OK for underwings.

66misos