Sovietwarplanes
July 19, 2019, 01:07:12 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: This forum replaces the old sovietwarplanes.com whose domain has expired in January 2017. It has been updated with the posts of the year 2016.
The new location of the site 'Sovietwarplanes pages' is at http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register  
Pages: 1 ... 14 15 [16] 17
  Print  
Author Topic: Suchov's p-39 White 50  (Read 75414 times)
Massimo Tessitori
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 5741


« Reply #225 on: May 10, 2014, 06:37:26 AM »

Hi Misos,
I mean the light area between the 50 and the tail. It's more evident in the colorized version.
Regards
Massimo
« Last Edit: May 10, 2014, 03:15:27 PM by Massimo Tessitori » Logged
66misos
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1482

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.


WWW
« Reply #226 on: May 13, 2014, 10:11:42 AM »

Hi Massimo,
here is updated picture. I cleaned it a bit, added (masking) branches of trees etc.

There darker area around the white disc - it looks like original late USAF marking repainted in Bell to white disc with red star, similar to that one seen on A-20 Boston http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1781.0.
There seems to be broken antenna wire.
I look for another bw photo, probably that Boston is the next one.
Regards,
   66misos
Logged

KL
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1678


« Reply #227 on: May 13, 2014, 10:40:48 AM »

Hi Misos,
your coloured P-39 looks very good.  But, photo without people is incomplete - Maybe you could add 3 pilots from that low quality image?  Even if they look "coarser" than the plane in background it would be better than 3 ghosts.  Wink

Number 50 is probably silver, similar to silver number on the preserved P-39 in Finland.  Silver paint is extremely reflective, like aluminum foil (or like mirror).  When photographed with flash (or in direct sunlight) it looks white.  Some paint manufacturers call this colour "metallic white".  Darker gray areas within the number are actually brush strokes, again like on the P-39 in Finland...

Regards,
KL
Logged
66misos
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1482

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.


WWW
« Reply #228 on: May 13, 2014, 10:54:25 AM »

Hi KL,
thanx Wink That "white" on 50 is different from white on the disc, it is probably really silver.
I tried to add there pilots from low res photo. Unfortunately they were not masked preciously when cut off from high res photo. Plus I made "50" less white and more "silver".

I already posted request at airforce.ru forum whether someone has complete high res photo. Then, if complete high res photo is available, I will make another version with colorized high res pilots.
Regards,
   66misos
« Last Edit: May 13, 2014, 03:55:54 PM by 66misos » Logged

66misos
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1482

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.


WWW
« Reply #229 on: May 21, 2014, 11:29:49 AM »

Hi,
this is response about "50" from airforce.ru:
Белый цвет на номере - фталевая эмаль, с хорошей сохранностью поверхности, "50" накрашена от руки, скорее всего алкидной или масляной краской. Поверхность грубая, пыль прилипает "как из пулемёта". + цинковые белила темнеют от хранения и под действием света.
Translated:
White color on the number - фталевая(2) enamel with good protection of the surface, "50" is painted freehand, probably with alkyd or oil paint. Surface is rough, the dust sticks on it "like from machine gun". Plus Zinc oxide darkens during storage and when exposed to sun light.
Regards,
    66misos
Logged

KL
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1678


« Reply #230 on: May 21, 2014, 06:34:52 PM »

It's clear that the number was hand painted and that the white disc was sprayed.  It's also logical that the number was painted with the Soviet paint and that the white disc was painted with the American paint.  The rest is guessing....

P-39 preserved in Finland and its silver number are a material evidence and can't be ignored (the surface of the number is rough, but dust and aging/degradation can't be observed).  If you want the number 50 to look like the number on the preserved P39, your original colouring was better (the new one is too gray).

regards,
KL
Logged
66misos
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1482

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.


WWW
« Reply #231 on: July 20, 2015, 11:19:07 AM »

Hi,
I am back here with this endless thread, I would like to finally finish the 4-view of Sukhov's P-39.

EDIT:
Work in progress picture deleted. Next WIP progress is bellow.

Light green on the front fuselage should be german RLM 82 and light blue on the underwings should be German RLM 76, both from the local stock at Aslau base.
Regards,
   66misos
« Last Edit: July 21, 2015, 03:45:48 PM by 66misos » Logged

Massimo Tessitori
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 5741


« Reply #232 on: July 21, 2015, 07:55:57 AM »

Hi Misos,
looks nice. Are the codes on the tail deleted with Soviet green, in this reconstruction?
Regards
Massimo
Logged
KL
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1678


« Reply #233 on: July 21, 2015, 08:30:51 AM »

Hi Misos,
it looks nice, but there is still some room for improvements...

1.  OD on side views is visibly darker than the same OD colour on top view.

2.  Fuselage number 50 should be silver (as per previous discussion)

3.  Underside light blue isn't convincing when compared with movie stills - it's too light relatively to NG.  Repair on wing undersides should be visibly glossy (as per previous discussion)

IMHO, German paints are only an intriguing option - we really don't know what paints were used.  So, Soviet paints should be considered - whatever has the right contrast to standard OD and NG should be the final choice.   Wink

Cheers,
KL 
Logged
Massimo Tessitori
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 5741


« Reply #234 on: July 21, 2015, 09:45:52 AM »

Hi,
I forgot it... repaintings on the fuselage should be visible on the upper view too.
Besides, although not visible on photos, the refuelling hatches and other parts of the wing uppersurface should be subject to considerable wearing, and are ideal candidates for a repainting.
Regards
Massimo
Logged
66misos
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1482

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.


WWW
« Reply #235 on: July 21, 2015, 12:53:23 PM »

Hi,
thanks again for comments. Smiley
EDIT:
Unfortunately work does not advance as fast as expected. View from top is at beginning now, there will be green color visible. And of course shade of OD will be tunned to match OD at side views.
Let me answer your question/notes.

1.) Serial number on the tail is repainted by VVS green, IMHO AMT-4

2.) Leading edge of the tail is repainted by some darker green, probably after some repair:


3.) Color of the number "50" really looks different from the (US) white disc under the red star. Really could be silver.
Or
...White color on the number - фталевая(2) enamel with good protection of the surface, "50" is painted freehand, probably with alkyd or oil paint. Surface is rough, the dust sticks on it "like from machine gun". Plus Zinc oxide darkens during storage and when exposed to sun light...

4.) "German paints are only an intriguing option - we really don't know what paints were used." Agree, but I have read that they (16 giap) had a lot of problems to get enough fuel for their Cobras and that Pokryshkin had to use all in official and unofficial influence and connections to get that fuel. And paints had much lower priority. On the other side that time 16 giap was based at the former German base Aslau with Fw-190A production facilities, e.g. there still could be German paints on the stock. IMHO German paints are (only a bit) more probable.
 
However, I am still not sure about light color at underwings. It looks glossy but I do not know whether it is paint feature or it is due to water splashed from the ground by wheels and/or propeller.

If the light color is glossy due to water then it could be matt light blue A-28m, considered previously:

AMT-7 seems to be too dark.

5.) IMHO all that repainting was not standard maintenance but due to repair of the damages from aerial fight on 25th February 1945, Sukhov himself: "My plane is hit. A fire erupted on my fighter... flame is not throbbing now, only a thin stream of smoke coming out from the holes on the plane...I counted seven holes from 20-mm shells..."
I do not know how that repainting exactly looked like, but I want to make "repaired" look, not standard/regular camouflage painting. Let's say here I use a bit more "artistic licence".

Hope I will be able to post some update today.
Regards,
   66misos
« Last Edit: July 22, 2015, 02:27:44 PM by 66misos » Logged

KL
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1678


« Reply #236 on: July 22, 2015, 09:13:35 AM »


3.) Color of the number "50" really looks different from the (US) white disc under the red star. Really could be silver.
Or
...White color on the number - фталевая(2) enamel with good protection of the surface, "50" is painted freehand, probably with alkyd or oil paint. Surface is rough, the dust sticks on it "like from machine gun". Plus Zinc oxide darkens during storage and when exposed to sun light...

Pfff...  Huh  number on the preserved Airacobra in the Finnish museum is painted freehand, it's rough, silver and there definitively is no dust "from machine gun"...


... I have read that they (16 giap) had a lot of problems to get enough fuel for their Cobras and that Pokryshkin had to use all in official and unofficial influence and connections to get that fuel. And paints had much lower priority. On the other side that time 16 giap was based at the former German base Aslau with Fw-190A production facilities, e.g. there still could be German paints on the stock. IMHO German paints are (only a bit) more probable.
 
However, I am still not sure about light color at underwings. It looks glossy but I do not know whether it is paint feature or it is due to water splashed from the ground by wheels and/or propeller.

Maybe there is no repainting at underwings after all.... So, it would be better to use something inconspicuous on underwings (something very close to NG), not that light blue which is close to white.  If underwings repair was light blue, it would have been visible as the white disc of markings - in reality it's hardly visible.

BTW, at the end of war, Germans didn't paint undersides - to save paint and time. 


5.) IMHO all that repainting was not standard maintenance but due to repair of the damages from aerial fight on 25th February 1945,

I thought we all have agreed on that long time ago...

regards
KL
Logged
66misos
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1482

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.


WWW
« Reply #237 on: July 22, 2015, 02:23:46 PM »

Hi KL,
IMHO the right underwing is repainte. Compare:

Right underwing:

There is apparent sharp demarcation line between matt NG and new lighter glossy paint.
Bottom fuselage looks also a bit glossy, but it could be simply wet.

Left underwing:

No traces of the glossy light repainting are visible.
Yes, that German RLM 76 Lichtblau seems to be too bright.

Regards,
   66misos

« Last Edit: July 22, 2015, 02:26:04 PM by 66misos » Logged

KL
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1678


« Reply #238 on: July 23, 2015, 03:41:42 AM »

Hi Misos,
thanks for posting again those movie stills.  I can see what you are trying to explain   Smiley

Maybe you can use contrast between the white discs surrounding red stars and unknown colour used to repair undersides?  or, maybe to determine first how wing shade affects NG and then use same amount to darken possible repair colour? or just measure how lighter is unknown colour then NG?

it looks to my eye that underwing repair colour could be the same colour used for repairs on upper surfacesHuh

Regards,
KL   
Logged
66misos
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1482

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.


WWW
« Reply #239 on: July 23, 2015, 02:15:03 PM »

Hi,
here is a picture close to the finish, I hope:



Light green is either Soviet 4BO in one of dozen of its shades (http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1515.msg13133#msg13133), or AMT-4 or German RLM 82.
Repainting on the underwings could be either Soviet A-28m or dirty German RLM 76.
Number "50" is not the same white as disc under the star, it could be some Soviet yellowish oil white or silver.

Regards,
  66misos
« Last Edit: July 23, 2015, 02:57:33 PM by 66misos » Logged

Pages: 1 ... 14 15 [16] 17
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.11 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!