Suchov's p-39 White 50

[66misos]

Hi KL,
I think that rules/orders are one thing and real life is another thing. And just because of that all discussions here and on other forums about "How did that plane look?" have its own beauty

In general, except for commanders, VVS pilots did not have "personal" planes. They flew what was available. Actually mechanics were responsible for individual planes, not pilots...

You are right, I found that info also in Tabachenko's book at http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1367.msg10303#msg10303:
The particular plane was not strictly dedicated to the particular pilot. Any pilot of particular IAP (GIAP) could be ordered to fly any plane from the unit. Only person strictly related to the plane was named technician. He was responsible ?by his head? that aircraft and its armament were duly. His duty was to prepare the plane to fly, but only commander decided who will fly the plane.
Commander of the IAP (GIAP) could choose fly any plane from his unit, because all planes were ?his?.
   But there is also written that:
However, each pilot made effort to fly ?his? plane. But if some better pilot or pilot without plane at that moment (e.g. damaged plane, maintenance, etc.) had to fly, he could fly any plane ordered to him by the unit commander.

"Flying Cyrcus" composed of pilots flying colorfull planes and fighting their own wars for score only was absolutely unacceptable for VVS.  Distinctive, personal planes were actually extremely rare in VVS combat regiments.

I recently focused only on 2 types - LaGG-3 (kit already built) and P-39 (planned to build) with following results:
1.) Mironov's LaGG-3
     - black star on fuselage while red one on the tail - not in line with valid rules:
      

2.) Galchenko's LaGG-3
    - nonstandard black/green scheme in summer 1942 instead of NKAP scheme,
    - national marking - red stars on fuselage and tail overpainted by personal marking - the cat (!!!) - not in line with valid rules, risk of a big trouble
      

3.) Rechkalov's P-39 (9th GIAP)
    - initials of his name (RGA) instead of standard board number (what is more personal?) - not in line with valid rules, risk of a big trouble:
      

4.) Glinka's P-39 (9th GIAP)
    - info from Igor Zlobin: "Concerning labeling/marking of the plane from a newsreel, it belongs to Dmitri Glinka from 100 GvIAP, note that the regiment belongs to 9th GvIAD and was supposed to have the symbol on the tail and spinner, but it had not!" - not in line with valid rules
    

5.) and of course Sukhov's P-39 (9th GIAP)
    - strange two color camouflage at least on the front fuselage,
    - Bell's transport version of SU National marking instead of standard red stars with white+red outline - not in line with valid rules:
      

6.) other P-39s in 9th GIAP
    - some had blue circles under red stars, some had overpainted them,
    - some had red stars on upper wings, others none,
    - not all planes from 100 IAP had white tail tips and spinners...

7.) I do not believe all that victory stars painted even on Yaks and LaGGs already in 41/42 represent let's say cumulative score achieved on particular plane. IMHO those victory stars represent personal victories of the pilot flying (mainly) "his" plane.

Simply at least mighty 9GIAP looked like the unit flying colorfull planes and fighting also for score (see a lot of victory stars on Rechlalov's, Klubov's, Glinka's etc. plane). Or we can see them as high profile individuals (number of 1HSU, some 2HSU, one 3HSU) willing to go a bit beyond the valid rules just to somehow distinguish themselfs, even risking troubles.
Pokryshkin seems to be exception. Due to some reasons he preffered to fly (or at least beeing photographed) in someone's else plane - 2x in Rechkalov's P-39, 1x in Sukov's P-39. Never photographed in "his" plane with visible board and/or serial number.

Regards,
     66misos

[KL]

I think that rules/orders are one thing and real life is another thing.

I respectfully disagree...    If this was true, rules would not matter and it would be pointless to study some 70 years old rules.  If this was true you would be able to interpret colours however you like...  red or yellow Airacobra would be possible...

Why do you always start with OD Airacobras?  Because you know that Bell complied with USAAF regulations.  Have you ever assumed that Bell may have ignored USAAF requirements and deliver some Airacobras in colours that were more to the liking of girls who worked there?

When I said "Flying Cyrcus" i meant something like this:


Note that each Fokker is painted in different way to emphasize pilot's personality .  Also note how RFC biplanes are all painted same way in a colour which have totally different purpose.

Examples you have posted confirm that VVS/NKAP regulations were followed, not ignored:
- Mironov's and Galchenkov's LaGGs were both camouflaged in black-green Scheme to comply with June 1941 order.  Galchenkov's LaGG received temporary white during the winter.  Black cat is really irrelevant.

-Rechkalov's and Glinka's P-39 were in standard USAAF colours.  You know that Bell complied with rules (see above  ).  Both pilots were highly decorated aces, commanders and participated in many propaganda sessions - victory markings were not against VVS regulations, spec if they also fulfilled propaganda purposes.

HTH,
KL

[66misos]

Hi KL,
I appologize I was not precise enough - orders are one thing and real life is something different within given circumstancies. I am confident that nobody here (me included) considered such extremes like some yellow planes with pink hearts etc. 
We all here have idea how NKAP scheme looked, how standard soviet national marking should look etc. It is upon everyones consideration whether given examples look like standard or something personalized.

Let's  come back to the topic. I think we both can agree that Sukhov's P-39 did not look like P-39 in standard USAF OD camo with standard soviet national marking from that days. And we try to describe that differences to paint reliable profile, to build accurate kit.
Regards,
      66misos

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi all,
I think that, while the discussion on what the rules were is useful, the discussion if rules were respected is a waste of time. All the photos that are compatible with a rule are interpreted as such. When one discusses so much on a photo (a serie of photos, in this case) is because they show something strange that needs some credible explanation.
Misos, would you try to trace a drawing of plane n.50? I suggest to use multiple layers, so you can easily modify it if needed.
Regards
Massimo

[66misos]

Hi Massimo,

...to trace a drawing of plane n.50... to use multiple layers, so you can easily modify it if needed.

is exactly what I intend to do.
However, before I would like to make and discuss additional screenshots to get better overall picture of Sukhov's plane.

Look at the bottom (3rd) picture:

Outer halfs of the both upper wings look darker and/or more Matt than inner halfs. Is that matter of different colors, or only different level of reflection?

IMHO: From practical point of view I currently preffer more alternative of some lighter color sprayed over OD on sides of the front fuselage, than some darker color sprayed over OD on the top of the fuselage. The alternative "from sides" can be performed much more easily/conveniently than "from the top" and do not require masking canopy. But this alternative does not answer the question whether serial numbers on the tail were overpainted with the lighter color as front fuselage, or with the darker green as reinforcement. Or with original OD? I hope further discussions show what is (closer to) the truth.

Regards,
    66misos

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi Misos, I suppose that the original OD was not available or appeared darker than the faded OD; else, the use of dark green on the rear fuselage would be not justified.
In my idea, the plane could be painted in three stages:
original OD then faded;
dark green on the modified parts (some repaintigs on other parts could have been on the same occasion)
light brown in a third time, at the unit, as a match for faded OD. Probably the inner side of the wings was repainted because worn for the access of the pilot and technicians.
About the tail, I would go with dark green over the factory numbers, I don't see traces of the lighter paint of the nose on it.
It's unclear if all these were intended as repaintings only, or this was an excuse to make an original camo without being persecuted by NKVD.
Regards
Massimo

[KL]

Hi Missos/Massimo,
you should recognize that movie showing nose and photo showing rear fuselage were recorded on very different mediums - different colour sensitivity, different processing, probably different lighting conditions, etc.
So, different shades of gray may represent the same colour.




I would not use more than 2 colours:  original OD and soviet repairs. Soviet repairs (and USAF markings) are usually covered in light olive green i.e. 4BO or its equivalents. I would keep it simple. 

I have to stress that modelers/profile artist usually over exaggerate fading effects.  The theory that paint significantly changes colour within 3 months is ridiculous.

HTH,
KL

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi Konstantin,
I think that all the images on the movie are concordant enough to show three shades on the nose: the darker one on the spinner and the door (presumably the same dark green ofthe rear fuselage) , a medium shade on a blotch over the nose and behind the cockpit (the original faded OD) and a lighter one that could be both light brown or light green as on the other wreck.
Spinner and front could even be black.
Regards
Massimo

[KL]

Radio compartment (Rear fuselage) most likely wasn't reinfoced.  Only tailfin was.
In that case colour behind No 50 and around white disk was original OD.

KL

[66misos]

Hi,

I found this in Sukhov's memoirs book Эскадрилья ведет бой:
"Машина доверена новенькая. Красивая, стремительная, нигде ни вмятинки, ни царапинки. Двигатель наработал всего лишь восемь часов. На фюзеляже только вчера мы вместе с механиком нарисовали ? разумеется, с помощью трафарета ? ярко-красную звезду. И рядом ? цифру ?50?. На этом самолете и с этим номером мне суждено было пройти войну до самого конца."

translated:
"Machine was new. Beautiful, impetuous, no scratches. The engine has gained only eight hours. Just yesterday we together with the mechanic painted - of course, using a stencil - a bright red star on the fuselage . And next - the number "50." I was destined to be with this plane and with this number until the end of the war."

And now trust in memoirs...

     66misos

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi Misos,
so this was a personal plane beloved by its pilot. Clearly the description don't fit to the plane as it appears on photos. It's likely that it was repainted in a second time after the modification, and the camouflage was made on request of the pilot, maybe with the excuse of repaintings.
Regards
Massimo

[66misos]

Hi,
I browsed Sukhov's book. I did not read it word by word so I could miss some detail. Anyhow, at least this is quite interesting:

Alexander Ivanovich came. Klubov's Aircraft mechanic Gregory Shevchuk reported him:
- Fighter is deformed, the fuselage is formed like "accordion", tip bent, torn flap holes ...
Klubov, in a wet tunic with salt stains, jumped off the plane and also surprisingly stares at his plane:
- Wow, how how twisted is overseas technology! I did not think that the plane will fail... said Klubov with smile.
Now it was clear why this type looked strangely - fuselage was deformed, antenna gone, the transmitter has moved from its place, the hellish congestion even cut the bolts.

End of august 1943.
Rechkalov was a bit unlucky. He hit "Ju-87", but when flying away from attacked plane, he pulled on the stick too much, very sharply and his "Cobra" deformed.

2nd september 1943, Sukhov attacking FW-189.
Distance is reduced. Seventy meters, fifty ... all six machine guns and cannon firing. The cabin smelled sour powder burning. Fireworks lights danced around an enemy plane cabin. Pieces flew around my plane.

The following day I did not fly, I helped to mechanic with my plane. Half of the work is done. In the morning, I arrived at the airport together with others, and Yakovenko reported: The plane is ready to fly!

...Ivan Mikhailovich again and again clean the glass with the cloth, removes drops of dew from the wings after the fresh night? He admires the shining "50"?

25th February 1945, Sukhov in dogfight.
My plane is hit. A fire erupted on my fighter... flame is not throbbing now, only a thin stream of smoke coming out from the holes on the plane...
A one hundred and fifty yards long  tripple track is plowed into soft ground. But the chassis survived. The aircraft stopped. I quickly open the right door, I want to see what damage is on the fighter. I'm still in the mud, inspecting plane. I counted seven holes from 20-mm shells. I left my plane in the care of aviation specialists...

It is already end of March 1945. We operate from the highway. Once our soldiers detained paratrooper disguised in civilian clothes. Group of the documentarists led by the cameramen Litvinchuk Alexandrov worked at the airport. Cameras started on, the scene was captured immediately - and now you can see it in the movie "Pokryshkin in the sky."

As you can see there were reasons for repair and repainting.
I hope you enjoy it.
     66misos

[KL]

so this was a personal plane beloved by its pilot. Clearly the description don't fit to the plane as it appears on photos. It's likely that it was repainted in a second time after the modification, and the camouflage was made on request of the pilot, maybe with the excuse of repaintings.

Hi Massimo,

Beloved plane? ?  Suhov said that it was both his and planes fate to survive till the end of the war.  You tend to romanticize things, Suhov didn't mention any feelings. 

May I ask what camouflage?  ?
The plane was hit in the nose, ammunition drums were hit, fuel tank was perforated, wings burned...  Plane was repaired immediately...

I found this in Sukhov's memoirs book Эскадрилья ведет бой:
Machine was new. Beautiful, impetuous, no scratches. The engine has gained only eight hours. Just yesterday we together with the mechanic painted - of course, using a stencil - a bright red star on the fuselage . And next - the number "50." I was destined to be with this plane and with this number until the end of the war."
...
25th February 1945, Sukhov in dogfight.
My plane is hit. A fire erupted on my fighter...
... I counted seven holes from 20-mm shells. I left my plane in the care of aviation specialists...
... It is already end of March 1945. We operate from the highway. Once our soldiers detained paratrooper disguised in civilian clothes...

Bravo Misos!!!
that's the way to go:  look for information, events, dates...  Memoirs are much better than guessing/assumptions.

Suhov and his plane:




Regards,
KL 

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi Konstantin,

"Machine was new. Beautiful, impetuous, no scratches. The engine has gained only eight hours. Just yesterday we together with the mechanic painted - of course, using a stencil - a bright red star on the fuselage .  And next - the number "50." I was destined to be with this plane and with this number until the end of the war."

This means not only that they both survided up to the war's end, but that this was his personal plane. 'Beautiful, impetuous' clearly means that he liked the plane's visual impression.

Suhov and his plane

:
No doubt that the plane was in uniform OD when new. But the photos, not one only, show clearly the disuniformity of the color. Interesting to know that they were repairs.
Cover drawings are nice, but hardly considerable as sources.
Regards
Massimo

[KL]

No doubt that the plane was in uniform OD when new. But the photos, not one only, show clearly the disuniformity of the color. Interesting to know that they were repairs.
Cover drawings are nice, but hardly considerable as sources.

Yes, now we know that those were repairs made in late February/March 1945.  Thanks to Misos... 

I posted cover to show the book - supposedly it's one of the best in the genre.  It was published in 1983, Suhov was 60 at that time.

KL