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Suchov's p-39 White 50
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Author Topic: Suchov's p-39 White 50  (Read 131336 times)
KL
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« Reply #45 on: February 22, 2013, 09:23:26 PM »

Quote
"Machine was new. Beautiful, impetuous, no scratches. The engine has gained only eight hours. Just yesterday we together with the mechanic painted - of course, using a stencil - a bright red star on the fuselage .  And next - the number "50." I was destined to be with this plane and with this number until the end of the war."
This means not only that they both survided up to the war's end, but that this was his personal plane. 'Beautiful, impetuous' clearly means that he liked the plane's visual impression.

As explained before, term "Personal plane" did not exist in VVS regiments.  You may find how planes were assigned to pilots and who was responsible for planes in this tread, in posts posted only few days ago.

"Beloved plane" reminds me on Pilawskii...  Grin
It's pointless to draw far reaching conclusions from two descriptive words provided by Google translator.
Regards,
KL
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #46 on: February 22, 2013, 09:42:41 PM »

Quote
As explained before, term "Personal plane" did not exist in VVS regiments.  You may find how planes were assigned to pilots and who was responsible for planes in this tread, in posts posted only few days ago.
I don't know if the term 'personal plane' existed in the VVS, but it certainly exists in English, and this is the description of a personal plane.

Don't compare me to Pilawskii, please.
If the words of Google are wrong, what is the right translation?

Regards
Massimo

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KL
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« Reply #47 on: February 23, 2013, 12:29:23 AM »

Quote
personal plane beloved by its pilot... and the camouflage was made on request of the pilot

Translation is OK, conclusion is wrong...

Regards,
KL
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #48 on: February 23, 2013, 06:36:26 AM »

Of course, you are right as always, Konstantin!
Quote
"Machine was new. Beautiful, impetuous, no scratches. The engine has gained only eight hours. Just yesterday we together with the mechanic painted - of course, using a stencil - a bright red star on the fuselage .  And next - the number "50." I was destined to be with this plane and with this number until the end of the war."
means only that he occasionally flew that plane and them both survived the war.

Quote
The following day I did not fly, I helped to mechanic with my plane. Half of the work is done. In the morning, I arrived at the airport together with others, and Yakovenko reported: The plane is ready to fly!

...Ivan Mikhailovich again and again clean the glass with the cloth, removes drops of dew from the wings after the fresh night? He admires the shining "50"?
And this means only that he had free time to waste to talk with mechanics, no relation between the repairs and his being grounded.

Quote
My plane is hit. A fire erupted on my fighter... flame is not throbbing now, only a thin stream of smoke coming out from the holes on the plane...
A one hundred and fifty yards long  tripple track is plowed into soft ground. But the chassis survived. The aircraft stopped. I quickly open the right door, I want to see what damage is on the fighter. I'm still in the mud, inspecting plane. I counted seven holes from 20-mm shells. I left my plane in the care of aviation specialists...
And here he is writing about a plane that he was flying ony casually, who cares of it.

Regards
Massimo
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66misos
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« Reply #49 on: February 25, 2013, 11:49:14 AM »

Hi KL,

I browsed again also Tabachenko's book to cross-check data. Sukhov mentioned 2 events which required repair/repainting:

1st damage - 2nd September 1943 (in Tabachenko's book and on airaces. narod.ru dated on 5th Sept 1943) - the first Sukhov's victory in 16GIAP. His P-39 was hit by pieces/debris from hit German plane. According Sukhov's memoirs the repair required one day. No mention about this damage on http://airaces.narod.ru/all4/suhov_kv.htm or Tabachenko's book.

2nd damage -  25th February 1945 - Sukhov's P-39 hit by 20-mm shells, even flames appeared on the plane, but Sukhov managed to land is successfully.
The plane left in the care of aviation specialists. This is mentioned also in Tabachenko's as well as on airaces. narod.ru.

However, nowhere any specific info about reinforcement of Sukhov's P-39.

De jure there were no personal planes, but de facto "personal" planes existed. Except the cases already described some other are here:

- from Sukhov's book: "На борту одного из них знакомая цифра ? ?25?. Это Ивашко."  - translated: There is know number on the fuselage of one of those (P-39s) - "25" - this is Ivashko.
This means, that also Ivashko flew his "personal" plane - with board number "25" and this was known fact within the unit.

- from Tabachenko's book: Просто военные кинооператоры снимали прославленного авиационного полковника - комдива на фоне именно этого самолета (видимо, хотели показать в кадре множество звезд - отметок о воздушных побeдах)... Но на этой машине только иногда летал Алекцандр Покрышкин (но праву комдива все самолеты авиасоединения - его), а Григирий Речкалов как полновластный хозяин самолета, на нем не только успешно воевал, но и закончил воину.
translated:
Simply war documentarists filmed famous airforce colonel - division commander - in this plane (apparently they wanted to show a lot of little stars - symbols of victories)... But Alexandr Pokryshkin flew on this plane only occasionally (all planes in the unit "belongs" to division commander), and Grigorij Rechkalov as absolute master(?) of this aircraft, not only successfully fought on it, but also finished the war.

Simply, higher ranked or more successfully pilot then more probability to have "his personal" plane.

regards,
     66misos
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KL
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« Reply #50 on: February 25, 2013, 09:03:50 PM »

Quote
De jure there were no personal planes, but de facto "personal" planes existed

I agree with this.  Exactly because of the above:

-  "Suhov's plane" is OK - Suhov himself refers to it as "my plane"
-  "Suhov's personal plane" is questionable/false - how many times Suhov mentions "personal plane"?
« Last Edit: February 26, 2013, 03:32:44 AM by KL » Logged
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #51 on: February 25, 2013, 10:13:56 PM »


Quote
-  "Suhov's beloved plane" is ridiculous
Don't write that my opinion is ridiculous, please.  If Suhov writes somewhere, or told to you that he didn't love that plane, then you are right, else this remains the idea that his words give to me.
You should respect the opinions of other people instead of questioning on one word.
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KL
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« Reply #52 on: February 25, 2013, 10:24:17 PM »

Sorry, I changed my post.
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #53 on: February 26, 2013, 07:10:54 AM »

It is OK, thank you.
Regards
Massimo
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66misos
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« Reply #54 on: February 26, 2013, 11:02:44 AM »

Hi KL,

I really do not want to argue about the word, it is not a point of this discussion. I understand that VVS terminology does not know term "someone's personal plane". On the other side pilots made effort to fly "their" planes, if outer circumstances did not prevent it. Therefore I called them "personal" planes.

Here are two examples when pilots did not reffer to their planes only as a "plane" or by type designation:

Czech forum http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/9462:
1.) (Pokryshkin) himself called his plane softly "Belochka", both by manufacturer - Bell, and because it is a "gentle maiden name" as he comments it in his memoirs.

Comment from that forum:
Russian name "Běločka? is among Russian people also used in the meaning when a person dependent on alcohol is already in such a state, when sees white mice - "belochki".

The similarity with:
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/mig3/pokryshkin.html
He stopped flying ?somewhat? drunken after he missed a Messerschmitt with his guns because of his condition! But, this kind of behavior seems to be very common during wartime.
is purely coincidental.

2.) Popkov about "his" La-7 at http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=201.msg1581#msg1581
"...На этом самолете я не знал поражений в течение длительного периода Великой Отечественной войны (с 1943 до победы). "Жеребчик" лихо вывозил из самых трудных периодов воздушных боев."
"...On this plane i have not been defeated during continuous period of Great Patriotic War(Since 1943 and until Victory). "Stallion" dashingly took me out of the hardest periods of dogfights."

IMHO in both cases above we can trace some positive emotional relation between pilot and "his" (not personal Wink) plane.

regards,
     66misos
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KL
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« Reply #55 on: February 26, 2013, 09:47:37 PM »

Spasibochki Misos,  Smiley
The reason for this discussion is a theory that every VVS pilot had a "personal" plane.  Or, that every VVS plane had its pilot - check here  Wink:
http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/Markings/I16/type5/index.php

It simply didn't work that way;  in some regiments pilots would regularly flew the same plane, in others they didn't!
How planes were assigned was commander's discretion.  "Personal plane" or "Any Available Plane" depended on circumstances, pilot's experience, rank and awards.
I hope that this info is new, interesting and useful at least to some forum members.

If you want to call the plane "Sukhov's personal plane", your choice.  I don't see need for the word "personal"...
Anyway, the case should be closed.

Regards,
KL
« Last Edit: February 26, 2013, 10:22:32 PM by KL » Logged
66misos
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« Reply #56 on: February 28, 2013, 12:32:34 AM »

Hi,

I compared statement from Sukhov's memoirs:
"Machine was new. Beautiful, impetuous, no scratches. The engine has gained only eight hours. Just yesterday we together with the mechanic painted - of course, using a stencil - a bright red star on the fuselage .  And next - the number "50." I was destined to be with this plane and with this number until the end of the war."

with info from Tabachenko's book:

1.) 16GIAP started on April with following P-39s (among others):
P-39D-2   S/N: 138424, 425
P-39K-1   S/N: 24445
P-39L-1   S/N: 24593, 601, 603

2.) May 15, 1943 ? six P-39N came, including Pokryshkin's 29004
May 17, 1943 ? P-39M-1 (24940) came, lost on May 29, 1943
May 27, 1943 ? P-39N  (28985) flew
May 30, 1943 ? P-39N (28995) lost.

3.) Due to high loses in 16GIAP Sukhov and twelve other pilots together with six P-39 from 84IAP were transferred to 16GIAP on May 30, 1943.
Serials of transferred planes are: 138423 (P-39D-2), 24446 (P-39K-1), 24590 (P-39L-1), 24600 (P-39L-1), 24688 (P-39L-1) and 24703 (P-39L-1). Compare them with the serials above.

According to the serials and tables on http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1367.msg10905#msg10905 I estimated that D-2 version was  produced sometimes in November 1941, e.g. on May 30 already 18 months old and those K-1 and L-1 were produced in July/August 1942, e.g. on May 30 some 10 months old. All that planes came to 16GIAP from 84IAP, not as a new planes from ZAP.

4.) Another P-39s came to 16GIAP after two weeks.

As we can see, 16GIAP used already M and N versions, when D-2, K-1 and L-1 came from 84IAP. So I am not sure whether we can consider those planes from 84IAP as new ones.

Moreover, I do not believe very much to this statement from Sukhov's memoirs: "...yesterday we together with the mechanic painted - of course, using a stencil - a bright red star on the fuselage...I was destined to be with this plane and with this number until the end of the war".
P-39 came to SU with:
1.) either Bell transport marking (red star in white circle), e.g. there was no need to paint red stars,
2.) or standard USAF marking, then red stars were necessary to paint and blue circles kept (or overpaint with green) - but then his (but not personal Wink) well known "50" with white circles should be a different plane. Or could be the same plane, but in that case Sukhov let paint white circles over former blue ones only in latter period during/after some overall repainting - see sharp contours of the white circle over sprayed two color background:

Note, red star on Sukhov's plane does not fit the white circle such preciously as on the original Bell transport marking:

Too conspirative?  Wink

regards,
     66misos
« Last Edit: February 28, 2013, 01:32:17 AM by 66misos » Logged

66misos
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« Reply #57 on: April 12, 2013, 09:23:34 PM »

Hi,
I am back again with Sukhov. I made 4 profiles, always color and b&w version of the same plane to better compare it with photos.

When looking at photos, I can see that upper rear part of the fuselage is lighter than repainting around white circle with red star while upper front part of the fuselage is darker than front/side fuselage. That is reason I decided for 3-color uppersurface painting.

I decided for repainting around white circle as well as serial number overpainting with A-24m.

For front fuselage I made 4 options. Color chips are taken from Massimo's page http://www.mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/color-table.html.

1.) front fuselage repainted with AMT-11


2.) front fuselage repainted with ALG-5 (original Massimo's chip):


Front fuselage repanted by myself mixed ALG-5
3.) ALG-5 (50% A-14 + 50% ALG1 very left part from Massimo's chip), a bit more yellowish:


4.) ALG-5 (50% A-14 + 50% ALG1 very right part from Massimo's chip), a bit more greenish:


Your opinions?

Regards,
     66misos
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #58 on: April 12, 2013, 10:49:20 PM »

Hi Misos,
clearly, last two drawings reflect much better what we see on the photo. I have doubts that the light color is ALG-1, it could be the same unidentified light green of the photo of the wreck, or AMT-1/A-21m that is a fair match for faded olive drab. I would use a darker shade for the dark green repaintings.

The spinner, propeller and part of the nose look repainted black.
Regards
Massimo
« Last Edit: April 13, 2013, 04:24:51 PM by Massimo Tessitori » Logged
66misos
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« Reply #59 on: April 14, 2013, 06:06:24 PM »

Hi Massimo,
I made another variant - rear fuselage repainted with AMT-4 green and front side fuselage repainted by AMT-1 light grayish brown.
4BO gave almost the same result as A-24m from my previous variants.
A-21m Matt light yellowish brown gave a bit lighter result than AMT-1.



You are right, the spinner, propeller and part of the nose look repainted by the same dark color - may be black. So I painted them by AMT-6 black here. I have to say that plane looks quite good.
However, red propeller spinner & red tail tip had to be used in 16th GIAP as divisional symbols since autumn 1943 by order. But on the other side, there are missing divisional symbols on Dmitri Glinka's P-39 from 100 GvIAP from the same 9th GvIAD. Seems again that everything is possible Huh

If there is an option FSxxxx and AKAN on http://www.mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/color-table.html, I use AKAN in all these profiles.

Regards,
     66misos
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