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Suchov's p-39 White 50
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Author Topic: Suchov's p-39 White 50  (Read 131445 times)
66misos
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« Reply #90 on: April 26, 2013, 08:56:54 AM »

Hi KL,

Quote
It's good to know that in factories, new planes were test flown before they were camouflaged.
Are you sure? It was always like that?





regards,
    66misos
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KL
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« Reply #91 on: April 26, 2013, 09:12:58 AM »

your LaGG-3s were photographed in 1943, Tu-2s even later.  Earlier, planes were flown before the final painting.

when planes were painted depended on factory too.


Regards,
KL
« Last Edit: April 26, 2013, 09:30:11 AM by KL » Logged
66misos
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« Reply #92 on: April 26, 2013, 10:33:27 AM »

Hi KL,

thanks for explanation. It looks again that possible was this and that... Wink
Quote
when planes were painted depended on factory too.
And it also reminded me discussion about "personal" painting on planes (pictures, victory marks, P-39 national marking etc.) - it depended also on unit/commander.

Back to Sukhov's P-39.

1.) Propeller

- spinner is dark but seems to be not so dark as fuselage nose,
- red star on fuselage from the same film/shot is also very dark
- propeller blades are significantly darker at their roots or inner halfs than on their outer halfs.
This could confirm already posted conclusion that:
- whole spinner was red,
- originally silver/grey blades (without yellow tips) were repainted black on their inner halfs, up to Aeroproduct logo.

2.) Upper wings

and


when compared with other P-39 during very similar weather and from very similar angle:


it seems that on Sukhov's P-39
- inner half of the upper wings is repainted by brighter color, going almost up to the middle fuselage,
- original OD is doing a bit bellow exhaust pipes, but not on the wing. Something like here:


Regards,
     66misos
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #93 on: April 26, 2013, 10:47:37 AM »

Early Migs of late 1940/41 were surely painted before the final assembly, in facts they show different greens on different parts. Probably the black bands were painted after the assembly, I don't know if after flown, but I don't think.  There is a photo of a LaGG-3 with primers, but it's still in the building and nothing suggests that it was already flown. Please, suggest a type and a factory where you think that planes were flown still finished in primiers.
Regards
Massimo
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66misos
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« Reply #94 on: May 02, 2013, 11:12:46 AM »

Hi,
IMHO all repainting was done by Soviets, see my post http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1515.msg12046#msg12046 so there were used (standard) VVS paints.

As KL wrote in his post http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1515.msg12049#msg12049:
Quote
Dark green could be any oil paint.

There left 2 options for green oil paints used in VVS - 4BO and the same looking A-24m. AMT-4 was not oil but had to have also the same looking. So modeller painting plastic kit has two options for darker green directly from AKAN - 4BO and AMT-4.

However, still no idea what modeller paint use for yellow/brown ALG-1. Said strictly aesthetically, I would preffer ALG-1 in its yellow/green version rather than this yellow/brown. It reminds me those Cobras from Africa, or even worse, those old green-brown pictures of VVS planes Sad

Regards,
     66misos

« Last Edit: July 23, 2015, 02:37:55 PM by 66misos » Logged

Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #95 on: May 02, 2013, 04:16:17 PM »

Hi Misos,
I think it's a nice artwork, but I am always skeptical on the identification of the lighter color as ALG-1. The brown repainting is extended up to the star on the left side on the fuselage, and the white disk was masked or repainted; this means that the repainting was intended as definitive, not temporary.  Should Soviets accept zinc chromate as camo color, they didn't need all other ones.
Regards
Massimo
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Seawinder
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« Reply #96 on: May 02, 2013, 05:14:47 PM »

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« Last Edit: May 02, 2013, 05:17:44 PM by Seawinder » Logged
66misos
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« Reply #97 on: May 03, 2013, 11:44:08 AM »

Hi,
let me summarize events in the chronological order that could lead to repainting of Sukhov's P-39:

1.) the first damage - 2nd or 5th September 1943
Sukhov's P-39 was hit by pieces/debris from hit German plane.

2.) Reinforcement of the rear fuselage
Bell engineers went to Soviet Union to collect evidence in late fall 1943.
Pilots in service units were killed/injured in stall accidents in 1944.  Official instructions regarding C.G. limits were issued in spring 1944.

Only P-39Q-25 and P-39Q-30 had tails modified at the factory. Those were two last P-39 versions in production P-39Q-25 had 4-blade propeller, very distinctive sub-type. 1100 out of 4905 P-39Q made, had tails modified by Bell. Remaining P-39s were modified by Soviets.

Despite the valid rules/orders defining appearance of Soviet national marking, Sukhov let either mask (=protect) original marking or repaint it in original way. Note red star on the right side of the fuselage is bit smaller than white circle, it does not fit it so precisely as on the original "Bell" marking.

3.) the second damage - 25th February 1945
Sukhov's P-39 was hit. A fire erupted on fighter... flame is not throbbing now, only a thin stream of smoke coming out from the holes on the plane... seven holes from 20-mm shells. Plane left in the care of aviation specialists...
The lighter repainting on the left side of the fuselage is extended up to the star and no."50". Again, despite the valid rules/orders defining appearance of Soviet national marking, Sukhov let either mask (=protect) original marking or repaint it in original "Bell" way.

End of March 1945.
Pokryshkin filmed in Sukhov's P-39 during highway take off and landing.

We can see that the first damage repair&repainting (front fuselage/propeller/wing leading edges ) and reinforcement with another repainting were done when the end of the war was not visible in the close future. In this case the standard camouflage is quite probable.
The second damage repair&repainting done 2-3 months before the end of the war. We know that now. But did also they know that war will last only 2-3 months? If no, standard camouflage color seems to be again quite probable. If yes, why to bother with anti corrosion protection?

What were properties of the primer? Was primer expected to resist the environmental and operational conditions (snow, rain, dust, grease, abrasion etc.)?

If primer instead of camouflage paint was used on the upper surfaces, one could expect it also on the under surface.
Here is a screenshot showing Pokryshkin checking bomb fitting under Sukhov's P-39 and two other P-39 to compare demarcation line between OD and median grey on the wing and fuselage:


These screenshots show wing contoures (red line) and demarcation line (yellow dotted line) between darker color on the outer half of the underwing and lighter color on the inner half:

Yellow/brown ALG-1 could look lighter than faded OD. However, is that primer also significantly brighter/glossier than medium grey? Or is inner half of the wing painted with blue AMT-7 or its oil equivalent?

regards,
     66misos
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #98 on: May 03, 2013, 02:03:42 PM »

Hi Misos,
I don't think that they flew planes with yellowish undersurfaces during the war, they could have been mismatched for German planes by their own AA.
In my opinion, any repainting on the undersurfaces was made with blue or grey paints.

Regards
Massimo
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66misos
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« Reply #99 on: May 03, 2013, 11:55:42 PM »

Hi Massimo,
IMHO that brighter inner half of the underwings is not optical illusion but repainting - it is too regular and in the "right" position. In that case it could be blue AMT-7 or its oil equivalent A-28m, same like paint for dark blue circles of USAF national marking repainting known from other L-L planes from USA.
Grey AMT-11 is too dark, AMT-12 and oil A-32m even darker.

In this context, when underwings seems to be partially repainted by standard camouflage color, IMHO also upperwings and fuselage was not only primed but also painted with standard camouflage color - only options are light brown AMT-1 or oil A-21m.

regards,
     66misos
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KL
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« Reply #100 on: May 04, 2013, 05:58:48 AM »

I don't think that they flew planes with yellowish undersurfaces during the war, they could have been mismatched for German planes by their own AA.

movie doesn't show a plane taking off and returning from a combat mission!  It was a test flight - Pokrishkin flew this plane to test additional bomb pilons (probably taken from a late P-39Q which normaly had fuselage bomb pilons).  This modification was probably related to repairs after forced landing - former "Suhov's" plane was repaired and modified into a fighter-bomber.

IMHO, this plane might have been repainted same day after the sucessfull test flight.  In that case repairs were primed first and that is what we see in the movie.

Regards,
KL
« Last Edit: May 04, 2013, 06:04:58 AM by KL » Logged
Saivila
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« Reply #101 on: May 04, 2013, 10:08:20 AM »

Intersting discussion. The result is airacobra captured straight from the candy box.   
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66misos
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« Reply #102 on: May 04, 2013, 09:17:56 PM »

Hi Saivila,

thanx for your post. I agree with you that after all repaintings that P-39 would look like flying circus. That is why I more and more abandon idea of repainting only by primer.
To make surface looking like original would require to use original US paints. As was written previously VVS used soviet paints for all kinds of repainting on different L-L planes.
So in this case, even if painted with standard camo paints and not only primer, it points on 5 basic colors: original USAF Olive Drab and Medium Grey and VVS (dark) green for reinforcement repainting, some brighter than faded OD (only light brown available) on fuselage and seems also on the inner halfs of upperwings and some brighter than MG (only bluegray available) on underwings. Plus black or dark green on the nose, plus red spinner and tail tip, plus red stars in white circles. Shocked
Really colorfull plane, could look nice on color film... Not surprising that Pokryshkin flew that plane when film makers from Moskow were there Wink

     66misos
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Saivila
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« Reply #103 on: May 05, 2013, 10:57:23 PM »

Hello .

If you ask me. This" Airacobra no 50" is just camouflaged in Russia and perhaps fixed a little, but i'm afraid i can't or even want
to prove it. Perhaps they really paint it for the coloured Propaganda movie.  Nobody knows it for sure. But here is another story.

I remember that someone from IPMS Finland has count the shades of the Airacobra no " 26" on now AA museum Finland, and wrote an atricle from this. "There was tens of shades, from Grass green to pure Brown." "You should consider that when you paint your model. Of course everything depends on the scale."  Something like this.

Are these many green shades on "26" only due for ageing, or perhaps lots of smaller overpaintings has done decades ago,
with varying quality of colours,- like was the practice on Mosvitsh Cars- , or are they even exist?
Basicly not many overpaings has done during the restoration, but forexample the leading edge is  redone. And the whole wing, as you might know, is taken from another plane.



Lots of pics available on the net  These photos  could be one of the best as a reference .Judge yourself .  

http://bell.pictures.fi/kuvat/Aviation/Museums/Ilmatorjunta+museo/P-39/

Regards Saivila
« Last Edit: May 05, 2013, 11:06:29 PM by Saivila » Logged
66misos
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« Reply #104 on: May 06, 2013, 10:41:19 AM »

Hi Saivila,

thanx for post. I know that link, those pictures circulated here on this web page a lot of time. Unfortunately real colors are distorted due to lighting conditions and camera flash. Anyhow, together with P-39 in Bell museum it shows that repainting was done only for particular purpose, without any aesthetics and with available paints, although not matching original colors.
This museum piece is a composition of two P-39Q Cobras: 44-2092 (42092) "20" corresponding to 103 GIAP and 44-2664 (42664) "26" corresponding to 103 GIAP, 2GIAK of Leningrad PVO.


Here we can see 2 repaintings - the 1st one (quite carefull and darker than OD) to change standard USAF national marking to Bell "transport" marking and the 2nd one already in SU.

   
Here, IMHO, original US darker repainting is covered by another repainting brighter than OD and far not so carefull (bright yellow-green primer or faded oil light brown A-21m?) and finally 3rd repainting to change Bell "transport" marking to soviet red stars (oil green A-19 or A-24m?)

.
Soviet blue (oil A-18?) on undrerwings.


Dark repainting near digits "26" is the color different from the green one used on the red stars. So yes, also this Cobra is quite colorfull, even after decades. And how it could be when all those repaintings were fresh... Like those old Moskvich Cars Wink
It is interesting how faded is OD. Soviet paints look more resistant.

Regards,
     66misos
« Last Edit: May 06, 2013, 10:43:24 AM by 66misos » Logged

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