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Suchov's p-39 White 50
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Author Topic: Suchov's p-39 White 50  (Read 130965 times)
66misos
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« Reply #75 on: April 24, 2013, 01:35:19 PM »

Hi,
thanks for your inputs.

KL,
nice chip. However, IMHO such chips are usually made on white paper. IMHO those 3 colors are not realistic but a more beige as seen on what was probably white background. But very helpfull after some corrections in Photoshop.
Could you, please, post the link on that Yak to compare it and make some "average"?

Here is a nice article about what is and what is not Olive Drab http://www.militarymodelling.com/news/article/olive-drab/4536/ and this is a picture of different OD modeller paints:

with this conclusion:
Model Paint (Acrylics)           TT-C-595/FS-595 match                            Suitability for models
Poly Scale 505370               Lighter than wartime colour                         OK for wartime OD (including "scale effect")
Model Air (Vallejo) 043         Lighter, greyer than wartime colour               OK for wartime OD (including "scale effect")
Tamiya XF-62                     Best match for wartime colour                     Should be lightened a bit with ochre (for "scale effect")

Here are another examples from http://www.art-paints.com/Paints/Acrylic
Olive Drab (Tamiya)


Faded Olive Drab (Testor)


Even if especially faded OD is not perfect match with reality, the shift to lighter brownish color is evident (as known also from other photos and reality).

In this context and if I do not know about photo of repainted rear fuselage with no. "50" and knowing only that docu video, then I would say that lighter color on the fuselage is original faded OD (delivered already in 1943) and darker color on the rear fuselage is let's say 4BO/AMT-4/A-24m, e.g. only 2-color uppersurface painting.
But that photo confuses me because it shows that upper rear part of the fuselage is lighter than repainting around white circle with red star while upper front part of the fuselage is darker than front/side fuselage. That is reason I decided for 3-color uppersurface painting.

So now I can see basically 2 alternatives (for fuselage originally painted OD, after 2 years strongly faded):
1.) both rear fuselage reinforcement and serial no. repanted by something darker than faded OD (i.e. 4BO/AMT-4/A-24m) and front fuselage repainted by something apparently brighter then faded OD - primer ALG-1 could be a good candidate here, although bright ALG-1 does not look very much like camouflage. Primer ALG-5 was known as "dark grey" and even light brown AMT-1/A-21m does not make contrast strong enough. Fuselage nose painted black, spinner (partially?) red, prop. blades partially black.

2.) bright front fuselage is original faded OD and middle and rear fuselage and tail repainted by something darker than faded OD (i.e. 4BO/AMT-4/A-24m or new OD from L-L deliveries?) and only reinforcement and serial no. repainted by something even darker than 4BO/AMT-4/A-24m/new OD - here paint of color like 3B would be a good candidate. And the same (very) dark green (3B?) used also for fuselage nose.

When considering way of field repaintings shown in the thread about Pokryshkin http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1367.msg10588#msg10588, VVS technicians seem to be focused more on functionality than on aesthetics. Why to waste the time and remove spinner and partially (although not very intentionally) overpaint propellers blades? Why not to do it fast all at once while paint and airbrush are on hand and together with fuselage nose partially overpaint (again, not very intentionally) also spinner and blades? Spinner on the screenshots is rotating so no details/boundaries are visible, everything is fuzzy. Even if spinner is black and red star is on its tip Wink Better photo would be very helpfull.

     66misos

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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #76 on: April 24, 2013, 04:55:45 PM »

Hi Misos,
interesting comparison of shades of OD. So, the one of Tamiya is the best?

About your proposals, the first one is by much the most likely. Other P-39s don't seem so light, besides we know that the plane was damaged and repaired on its nose, so it is the place where the paint is more likely new.
The lighter color is certainly the added one, in facts it covers the part of the door that is more subject to friction including the handle.
Chipping could remove only a small amount of color, so why make the look of the plane worse repainting a much wider surface with yellowish primer? In my idea, they tried to match the original color, so the likely candidates are the lighter green seen on the museum and the even closer Soviet 'light brown'.
Observing the photos, there could be a previous repainting with dark green in the zone of the door's hinges.
Regards
Massimo
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66misos
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« Reply #77 on: April 24, 2013, 06:06:21 PM »

Hi Massimo,

Quote
So, the one of Tamiya is the best?
Yes in direct comparison with real objects but without scale effect probably too dark for small kits. Anyhow, I preffer one-to-one approach without scale effect.

Quote
there could be a previous repainting with dark green in the zone of the door's hinges.
Could be. But it could be also only same color but darker due to grease&dirt.
Your idea evokes another "option" in my head - partial reinforcement & S/N repainting (on photo) plus some repainting around the door is from one, earlier period and overall rear fuselage and tail (on doc movie) is from another, latter period.

Quote
likely candidates are the lighter green seen on the museum and the even closer Soviet 'light brown'.
On my monitor both light brown AMT-1 and A-21m are not contrast enough on the faded OD which is more brown than green.
I do not believe very much to bright yellow/green or yellow/orange ALG-1 used as a camo color.

If I remember correctly nobody here (on sovietwarplanes) was able to clearly (by name & number) identify those light gey/green seen on the museum in Finland. It looks more like something "custom-mixed". And also primer ALG-5 is only a mix of primer ALG-1 and paint A-14.
So finally that light color on the front fuselage could be some mix of ALG-1 and ... then it could be almost anything (KL, I apologize Wink)

    66misos
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KL
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« Reply #78 on: April 25, 2013, 12:04:52 AM »

Quote
nice chip. However, IMHO such chips are usually made on white paper. IMHO those 3 colors are not realistic but a more beige as seen on what was probably white background. But very helpfull after some corrections in Photoshop.
Could you, please, post the link on that Yak to compare it and make some "average"?
White paper???
Photo shows chips from 1948 ?Albom Nakrasok? ? its paper is yellowish ? quite normal for a book printed 65 years ago.

You have to believe me:  1944 ALG-1 is very similar to Albom's chip.  I know this because I saw them both.  If you want better photos, send me PM.


Quote
Here is a nice article about what is and what is not Olive Drab http://www.militarymodelling.com/news/article/olive-drab/4536/ and this is a picture of different OD modeller paints:

I am not an expert on OD, but I saw P-39 in Tusula.  Most of the chips you refer to are way off.  OD is brown with slight greenish tinge.
I am trying to understand what colours represent, I don?t rely on chips too much;  Olive Drab is all about mud ? it was a colour developed for trench war.  Soviet 4BO is all about chlorophyll.  4BO is significantly greener and yellower than American OD.  I really can?t understand your explanation for rear fuselage modifications painted in 4BO.

Cheers,
KL   
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66misos
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« Reply #79 on: April 25, 2013, 06:56:51 AM »

Hi KL,
thank for comment.
Quote
White paper???
Photo shows chips from 1948 ?Albom Nakrasok? ? its paper is yellowish ? quite normal for a book printed 65 years ago.
You have to believe me:  1944 ALG-1 is very similar to Albom's chip.  I know this because I saw them both.
If it is real photo from 65 years old book, then I have no problem to accept relative beige background as an old paper. I saw such paper in books a lot of time. However, human eye see and brain interprets according to the experiences. So if one put sheet of purely white paper under yellow, or red or blue or etc. lamp, he always interprets is white. Not camera. That is why there is "white balance" feature which can compensates color of surrounding light. I'm sure everybody knows difference between photo of some family event made on evening (standard interior lamps) without camera flash ("warm" yellow picture) and with camera flash ("cold" blue picture").

I have no problem with the fact that ALG-1 could be also of nice yellow color, I already know from you that:
Quote
ALG-1 color wasn't standardized - from wrecks it color could be anything between:
bright yellow
green-yellow
brown-yellow
I have problem with painting war time plane with bright brown/yellow or orange color which has more de-masking than masking effect. Although it could look nice and attractive on the kit.

I agree that:
Quote
OD is brown with slight greenish tinge.
This is quote from mentioned article: "The World War I Quartermaster Olive Drab was described by Charles Lemons, curator of the Patton Museum at Fort Knox, as the colour of pig slop, that is a very muddy olive brown...The pigments used to mix Olive Drab were very simple: black and ochre."
Yes, all that chips tend to be too greenish. But again it could be matter of lighting during photosession and/or scanning setup etc.

Quote
I really can?t understand your explanation for rear fuselage modifications painted in 4BO.
4BO, AMT-4 and A-24m should look very similar, at least when new and they are darker than faded OD. And on b&w picture there is no big contrast between faded OD a that darker color. Difference is visible on the (overexposed or high contrast) photo but not on the low contrast docu movie.
For colors I took reference from AKAN web page. I did not find A-24m there, so I used 4BO which had to/could look the same.
IMHO, 3B Dark Green or AII Green look better, but were they used still in 1944?
A-19 Green, somewhere referenced as "grass green" looks too bright.
I preffer using defined colors, "custom mix" is the last option.

regards,
     66misos
« Last Edit: April 25, 2013, 06:59:16 AM by 66misos » Logged

66misos
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« Reply #80 on: April 25, 2013, 09:38:26 AM »

Hi KL,

here is a picture in both b&w and color version where I applied your recommendations:
- front fuselage repainting is ALG-1 from your chip (Albom Nakrasok),
- rear fuselage repainting is dark green 3B taken from AKAN page,
- spinner is only red, color taken from AKAN page.



That dark green 3B looks too dark and contrast in both b&w and color version. Your ALG-1 from Albom Nakrasok has acceptable contrast in b&w version and I have to admit that it does not look too bright in color version as I was afraid Smiley

Regards,
     66misos
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4bogreen
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« Reply #81 on: April 25, 2013, 03:01:52 PM »

Hi Guys  Cheesy

I have a very interesting link for lend lease P-39. Is a recovery of a P39Q. A couple of modifications were made to reinforce the body. Also the paintjob is intresting, especially the green overspray.

http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/articles/sheppard/p39/

I am very bad with computers, i hope it works... Roll Eyes

Regards,

Remco
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66misos
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« Reply #82 on: April 25, 2013, 03:49:32 PM »

Hi Remco,

I know that link, both from here and from russian forum scalemodels.ru. Refferences are at the beginning of this thread.
Anyhow, thank you for your effort  Wink

      66misos
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KL
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« Reply #83 on: April 25, 2013, 07:32:37 PM »

- front fuselage repainting is ALG-1 from your chip (Albom Nakrasok),
- rear fuselage repainting is dark green 3B taken from AKAN page,
- spinner is only red, color taken from AKAN page.



Very good, you are making progress now!  Smiley

Front fuselage looks very interesting.  Your ALG-1 is very close to the real thing.  This brown ALG-1 is also preserved on some Il-2 wings found in the tundra - some authors (namely Pilawskii  Wink ) confused this primer with camouflage paints and called it AII Brown, AMT-1 etc  Grin.

IMHO, AKAN 3B is questionable!  It's based on a dark gray-green re-painting on a small TB-3 fragment from Finland.  I wouldn?t rely on a re-painting (which could be ?whatever was handy?).

I think that 3B was really the darker ?protective? green used to paint SSh-36 helmets.  Fortunately many of those are preserved!  Following is the one from the Winter War Museum



But, for the rear fuselage modifications, I would use dark green from the Buffalo museum P-39?

Cheers,
KL
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #84 on: April 25, 2013, 09:19:37 PM »

Hi Misos, hi all,
I am not too convinced by the last profile for some reasons:
we have said that it was a repair, then the plane was delivered to the pilot ready for fly and even for a movie; so, the paint should match much better the base color;
there is not any indication that zinc chromate primer was acceptable as an outside/camo color, else, Americans could have spared their olive drab and Soviets their greens, greys and browns;
I don't know any wreck or exhibit showing repairs with ALG-1 over the camo colors, but always under them;
even admitting that it could be ALG-1, any chip is unuseful, because it was not standardized and could be of any color between apple green, yellow and red brown.


The site of Akanihin writes that their digital chips can be misleading if utilized to match accurately a color. So, the lower contrast of their A-21 digital chip on faded olive drab could be misleading too.
For what I have seen, it looks that the AMT-1/A-21 could appear as a light color, particularly if new; on the rear fuselage of Shturmoviks it appears lighter than on the front, for some unclear reason, and can well match what we see on the movie.
About the dark green, I think always that it was AMT-4/A-24m, their standard green that is anyway darker than faded OD. For what I know, 3B was out of use since 1940 in the army. How many years can a can of paint last?
Regards
Massimo
« Last Edit: April 25, 2013, 09:29:00 PM by Massimo Tessitori » Logged
KL
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« Reply #85 on: April 25, 2013, 09:49:30 PM »

Hi all,  Smiley

Two things should be clear in the case of this particular P-39:

1.  Plane is not camouflaged.  If it was, it would have been painted in 2-gray camouflage scheme like other VVS fighters.  Word "camouflage" has a certain meaning in Soviet military terminology; what we see on this P-39 doesn't conform with the meaning of the word "camouflage".

2.  There was no attempt to match colour of repairs with the original colour.  If the difference in colours is recorded on the low sensitivity B/W film, the difference in colours was significant.  We know from preserved P-39s that Soviet paints applied on modifications or to cover markings usually did not match original American colours.  In this case, VVS technicians were concerned only with the protection against corrosion.

Cheers,
KL  
« Last Edit: April 25, 2013, 09:51:43 PM by KL » Logged
66misos
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« Reply #86 on: April 25, 2013, 09:51:36 PM »

Hi KL,
I made progress thanks to our common effort Smiley Yours as well others inputs are more than welcome.

Quote
But, for the rear fuselage modifications, I would use dark green from the Buffalo museum P-39?
Cheers,
KL
That is exactly what I am trying to do. Only problem is what paint is that dark green Huh

As you wrote here http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1515.msg11134#msg11134:
Quote
Only late P-39Q were modified/strengthened by Bell...  Remaining P-39s were modified by Soviets.

For those modified by Bell (e.g.late Q versions) one these colors could be option http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1515.msg11130#msg11130:


HOWEVER, according to the my post http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1515.msg11250#msg11250 Sukhov's plane could be most probably L or N version, but definitely not late Q version. It means that rear fuselage reinforcement was done by Soviets.
And in this case there is already several time asked the same "question for milion" - what is that dark color?
We already found that:
- 3B is questionable,
- AII Green probably same as 3B (no comment so far),
- AMT-4 and 4BO not very probable, rather A-24m, although for modellers the color of all these 3 paints could be the same,
- A-19 "grass" green is too bright.
I do not know about any other paint used by VVS during WWII, except different "custom-mixes".
So IMHO the hotest candidate is A-24m for Sukhov's L or N version. But its color is far from that dark green on P-39 in Buffalo museum, which is Q versios.

Massimo,
although this yellow/brown ALG-1 looks interestingly, I somehow tend to preffer paint, not primer. Except AMT-1 and A-21m there was no other paint that was brighter than faded OD and could be used as camouflage e.g. masking, not de-masking color for uppersurface.

Regards,
     66misos
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KL
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« Reply #87 on: April 25, 2013, 10:11:56 PM »

Quote
Only problem is what paint is that dark green  Huh
...
And in this case there is already several time asked the same "question for milion" - what is that dark color?

See my previous post!  Paints applied to cover modifications and repairs were not camouflage paints.  VVS technicians were concerned with corrosion, not with camouflage.  Forget AMT-1, AII Z, AMT-11 - wrong type of paints (nitro paints for fabric) + camouflage paints.

Dark green could be any oil paint.
3B was used as a primer for tanks at the begining of GPW, maybe later.
In 1945 camouflage wasn't a priority, check USAAF planes.

It's good to know that in factories, new planes were test flown before they were camouflaged.

Cheers,
KL
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #88 on: April 26, 2013, 07:34:03 AM »

Hi,
Quote
It's good to know that in factories, new planes were test flown before they were camouflaged.
Some prototypes, for example many Sukhois, fly in zinc chromate and grey 'patch'. Production planes were painted on the line.
Regards
Massimo
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KL
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« Reply #89 on: April 26, 2013, 08:33:37 AM »


Hi,
Production planes were painted on the line.

Are you sure? It was always like that?
Regards,
KL
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