Suchov's p-39 White 50

[66misos]

Hi,
it looks like looking for answers by exclusion
IMHO, plane should looks at least partially camouflaged, not de-masked. I am trying to find standard VVS paint colors rather than some custom mix from anything on hand. However, there are not many options when looking at the paints portfolio for VVS.

1.) something slightly brigter than OD for upper surface:
- color of primer ALG-1 was not codyfied, so it coud be anything between bright yellow-green through yellow-orange (example in Albom Nakrasok) to dark yellow-brown, so it could be brighter, almost same or darker than faded OD,
- primer ALG-5 not applicable for P-39, plus it is darker than faded OD,
- A-19f grass green (upper surfaces of metal planes Il-2, Pe-2, Il-4..., June 1940 -July 1941) already not in use at that time,
- no other light green,
- no light grey (even AMT-11 is darker than faded OD),
- only option seems to be oil light brown A-21m which looks brighter than nitrocel. AMT-1.

2.) something slightly darker than faded OD for reinforcement repainting:
- dark green 3B already not used at that time,
- AII Green not applicable and used at that time,
- 4BO not usually used for planes,
- no other VVS dark green available,
- possible alternatives AMT-4 and A-24m

3.) something brighter than faded/dirty Neutral Grey for under surface:
- yellow-green through yellow-orange to dark yellow-brown primer ALG-1 would make plane contrast like target for shooting practising,
- neither relative dark AMT-11 nor AMT-7 is significantly brighter than faded NG as visible at least on right under wing,
- blue A-18 already not in use at that time,
- oil matt greyish blue A-28m seems to be only option.

Did I miss any color?

      66misos

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi Misos,
yes, you have missed the possibility that the paint was not in VVS inventory.
About the undersurface, I don't know if the new color is lighter than NG, the photo seems to show a reflection on a semigloss (or semimatt) freshly painted surface, in fact the lightness is interrupted where the gear door breaks the reflection of the sunny background. This suggests an AMT paint, because A-28m was very matt.
In absence of other informations, it's impossible to make better. I suggest to complete the profile as it is, you could always change it if any new document should emerge.
I'm sure that there are lots of other interesting Airacobras to draw.
Regards
Massimo

[66misos]

Hi Massimo,

when considering paints outside VVS inventory, what could be their source?

1.) Foreign paints?

P-39s were delivered with kind of service pack (I do not know exact military terminology) including spare parts and paints. So Olive Drab was real possibility also in SU not only during the initial delivery, but also in later service.

US aviation paints in Soviet Union - Very interesting, but we need at least a single piece of evidence for this.  Any documents?  any wrecks?
Without evidence it is still a guess (you may call it a hypothesis).

2.) Red Army paints?
I am far from being an expert for Red Army paints. I browsed AKAN page and found following possibilities for Red Army 1939-195x field camouflage (cars, tanks, artilery, etc.):

1.) 63017  Green               (in some districts for for camouflage spots or full color)

2.) 63020  4BO              

3.) 63022  Light Green    

4.) 63081  Yellow-Green  

5.) 63082  Sand              

6.) 63083  Brown            

7.) 63084  Brown-Green    

Regards,
     66misos

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi Misos,
maybe German? They were in a German airfield, I think.
However, there is no positive information on this. I suggest to complete the drawing and pass to another one.
Regards
Massimo

[66misos]

Hi Massimo,

but if I make faded OD a bit darker, then contrast between OD and A-21m would be better
Plus I will check again that underwings brighter color in doc film. It is quite evident at least under right wing.

Look at the front view P-47D photo:

I know, it is different plane from different time and conditions, but repainting by apparently brighter color is visible on the left underwing under the star. IMHO relatively dark AMT-7 does not make such a big contract on also relatively dark Neutral Grey.

     66misos

[66misos]

Hi Massimo,

here is a couple of screenshots showing right underwing - brighter and/or reflexing part of the painting is visible and with clear boundaries approximately in the middle of the wing.



Hope it will help to find consensus about color of underwing repainting.

      66misos

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi Misos,
on the third photo, we see that  the reflection on the semigloss paint is obscured by the bomb; on the fourt and fifth, by the landing gear door. We see reflections behind the bomb and bays too, seems that the repainting extends up to the rear edge and a bit behind this under the fuselage. The repainting under the wing is straight and arrives closer to the stars, more or less in the position of the guns on the drawing (but I don't see barrels on the photos).
About the P-47: I'm not sure to see repaintings under the wings. I see that the photo has lighter and darker parts that extend both on the plane and background. In my idea, it's a defect of the photo.
Regards
Massimo

[KL]

I'll stress this last time:

1.  This P-39 wasn't camouflaged and there was no attempt to match colour of repairs with original American colours.
2.  It was a test flight. Plane was modified to carry bomb.

Most likely colour for repairs is Soviet olive green - one of 4BO derivatives (like A-24m, but there were more oil versions that were used by Army). You only have to adjust olive green to mach contrast between OD and repair colour you see on the movie.

Another option is ALG-1. Again you only have to adjust ALG-1 colour to mach contrast you see on the movie.

Keep it simple!

Cheers,
KL

[66misos]

Hi,
thank for comments.

@Massimo,
very good point regarding missing wing guns Although those pictures repeats basically from the beginning of this thread, you mentioned it first. They probably removed them to save total weight during bomb testing.

@KL,
what I remember from books there flew German planes daily over highway airfiled, so I think Russians would preffer less visible plane in that area. So I would (just my opinion) rather use standard camouflage paints.

I reworked this picture a bit.
1.) I took two chips of Gunze Olive Drab found on Internet (I saw it in real in local hobby shop and it looked at least for me convincing, slightly browner than Tamiya) and mix them with OD from my picture. Result is a bit darker Olive Drab.
2.) for rear fuselage reinforcement repainting I used AMT-4 from AKAN page. I would preffer A-24m, but it is not on Akan page. From modeller point of view they both should/could look same.
3.) front and side fuselage is painted 4BO from Akan page. I took this color after I saw it airbrushed on my Yak-1 - how bright it is on direct sun.
B&w picture shows that 4BO makes apparent contrast against OD.
4.) I have not remove wing guns from my picture yet, I just changed colors.



I will browse again Tabachenko's, Sukhov's a Pokryshkin's books wether there is some interesting info I missed previously.
Regards,
     66misos

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi Misos,
I fear that the contrast on the nose is by far unsufficient. Besides I don't think that the light paint on the nose is the same of the less contrasting blotch in front of the star. I would avoid 4BO on the nose.
Regards
Massimo

[KL]

Hi Misos,
I think it looks great!  More important, it's the most probable scenario - use of olive green on Land-Lease planes has been documented on several wrecks.  What paint precisely (A-24m, 4BO or something similar) is almost irrelevant.
Regards,
KL

[Massimo Tessitori]

It could also be green, but not with that contrast. Even the zinc chromate would be better to fit better the photos.
I think that the idea of choose a color with precision from the existing palette of VVS is losing: none fits. I would make any color that respects the contrast. Anyway, AMT-1 and A-21m appear different in many photos, even on repaintings on the same plane. You could lighten them to find some resemblance. Or put a light green, without clarifying if it's zinc chromate or any other paint out of inventory. Or a light grey as some other profiler did. Anything but this.
Regards
Massimo

[KL]

Anything but this.

Anithing but AMT-1 and A-21m.  Because they didn't match colours and because there is no evidence (yet...) that AMT-1 has ever been used on L-L planes.
Regards,
KL

[Massimo Tessitori]

In photos, these colors can appear light enough.

Whatever color it is, there no any other evidence of its use on P-39s.
Could also be an unknown mix of colors.  Some light green maybe.
Regards
Massimo

[66misos]

Hi,
here is supplemental info to http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1515.msg11220#msg11220 I found in Pokryshkin's and Tabachenko's books:

1.) Pokryskin, War Sky:
Sukhov was known as an expert for FW-189 ?Frame?.
Sukhov returned with damaged and burned plane. I saw how flames appeared when speed of plane decreased and how they disappeared when Sukhov started attack.
We built roadblocks on the highway. Trucks and columns accepted this, they bypassed highway airfield via field. But once tank went through roadblocks and almost crashed to landing plane.
Once in February we catch German spy...It was a day full of intense training ? shooting and bombing. Pairs of experienced pilots and novices exchanged on the starts. There was nonstop noise in the sky. Sukhov?s ?four? was in the sky. Sukhov shot down one plane.
There were film makers at our airfield that time.

2.) Tabachenko, Pokryshkinskij aviapolk:
Feb 25, 1945, 18:00, Sukhov shot down Fw-190. During next fight Sukhov flew directly against another Fw-190, they both fired. FW-190 in flames crashed into the ground. Sukhov?s plane was also damaged and burned. Sukhov maneuvering in high speed extinguished the fire and landed at 19:00. During the next flight on 28.2.1945 Sukhov shot down 2 Fw-189.
16GIAP had on airport in Aslau 32 P-39, 2 La-7, 1 Ula-5 and 1 Po-2 during March 1945. There was also planes from 104 GIAP in the same airport.
Sukhov flew again on March 3 and March 7.
Pilots from 16GIAP started to fly free hunting and scouting with bomb in March. After crossing front line they looked for targets, bombed it and continued in flight. Total 34 flights with bombs FAB-100 were performed by 15 pilots during March 1945.

3.) I did not find any additional relevant info in Sukhov?s book Eskadrilja vedet boj.

From info above we can see that:
- there were also "native" soviet planes in 16GIAP requiring standard VVS paints for maintenance,
- there were a lot of field arms requiring standard 4BO and other Army paints for maintenance,
- several P-39 (of experienced pilots) were modified to carry the bombs.

     66misos