Suchov's p-39 White 50

[Massimo Tessitori]

VVS pilots did not have any say in plane colours

I suppose that many slogans or personal marks were made for pilot's will. It could also be that a pilot preferred to modify something of the livery of his plane, or put in evidence a repair, instead of writing a slogan.
I  think that they hadn't chosen that plane for a propaganda movie, if they thought that it would have given a bad impression.
Regards
Massimo

[B_Realistic]

We hit the 11th page marker on this one.

[Massimo Tessitori]

Yes, we've collected a lot of interesting considerations but not found the answer to the question: what color is on the nose?
Misos, I suggest to choose any light color and put it provisionally on the drawing unless new informations will emerge. Eventually even grey 02 not to go against other profilers without proof, or light brown if you prefer.
Regards
Massimo

[KL]

I suppose that many slogans or personal marks were made for pilot's will. It could also be that a pilot preferred to modify something of the livery of his plane, or put in evidence a repair, instead of writing a slogan.

Massimo,
Patriotic slogans are not related to colours and camouflage.  You are mixing apples and oranges; you are saying that because some VVS pilots had "For Stalin" slogans in 1941, pilots were allowed to choose any colour for their planes in 1945.  It simply didn't work that way...

Try to think this way:  how common were planes painted according to pilot's wishes in other airforces?  Is there a single Luftwaffe plane painted after pilot's requests?  Any RAF planes painted in pilots' favourite colours?  Any Italian WWII planes camouflaged according to pilots' instructions?
Was VVS any different?

Regards,
KL  

[KL]

Yes, we've collected a lot of interesting considerations but not found the answer to the question: what color is on the nose?

Actually, we have learned what had happened to the plane, why its nose is repainted, when and where it was filmed and a lot of other interesting facts...  That should count too!

We know that there are only few options for nose colour - it's not "any light colour".

Regards,
KL

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi,

Actually, we have learned what had happened to the plane, why its nose is repainted, when and where it was filmed and a lot of other interesting facts...  That should count too!

I've written just this.

We know that there are only few options for nose colour - it's not "any light colour".

One that has to draw a profile or to paint a model usually prefers to know that it was 'any light brown' (or 'any light grey' or 'any zinc chromate' or 'any light green') instead of one between AMT-1, ALG1 , Grau 02 etc that have known names and shades but are completely different between them.
The good thing is that it's very difficult that anyone will demonstrate that the preferred choice is wrong.

You are mixing apples and oranges; you are saying that because some VVS pilots had "For Stalin" slogans in 1941, pilots were allowed to choose any colour for their planes in 1945.  It simply didn't work that way...

Please keep in mind that Sukhov was present during the repairs, and had certainly approved, if not suggested, the choice of the color for the repainting.
Besides Suchov's plane had already uncommonly preserved or restored white backgrounds on the red stars, although all other planes of the unit  had been repainted deleting them since long time, and this was certainly a choice of the pilot, approved by the regiment commander. Having uncommon national marks is by far more trasgressive than an uncommon livery.
Should he  have not appreciated the multicolor look of the plane, the repair session would have been the best occasion to repaint in green all the nose and the white disks.

Misos, please make a try: take a chip with Photoshop of all the colors that were proposed for the repainting (zinc chromate, light brown, apple green and light grey) and mix them in equal parts; let's see what comes out, just to have an idea.

Regards
Massimo

[66misos]

Hi,
they taught me in the school something like that the highest criteria of the theory is practice. So I purchased "test" Academy P-39N in 1/72, Tamiya and Gunze paints today. Akans I already have. I will do something like this http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1515.msg12469#msg12469 but with real (modeler) paints and will post photos of results. But before I want to finish my Yak-1, hope soon.

@b_realistic,
when looking for truth, sky is the limit. Some page maker no.10 will not stop us

     66misos

[KL]

Please keep in mind that Sukhov was present during the repairs, and had certainly approved, if not suggested, the choice of the color for the repainting.
Besides Suchov's plane had already uncommonly preserved or restored white backgrounds on the red stars, although all other planes of the unit  had been repainted deleting them since long time, and this was certainly a choice of the pilot, approved by the regiment commander. Having uncommon national marks is by far more trasgressive than an uncommon livery.
Should he  have not appreciated the multicolor look of the plane, the repair session would have been the best occasion to repaint in green all the nose and the white disks.

Hi Massimo,
No, Suhov most likely wasn't present during the repairs.  His plane was seriously damaged, it was most likely transferred to PARM (mobile overhaul shop).  Modifications visible in the movie (bomb shackles and removed wing guns) also suggest overhaul.

Instead of guessing some facts from Tabachenko?s book:
-   during the Feruary 1945, 16 giap lost 4 Airacobras: one was lost in combat, one was transferred to PARM on February 09 and two were disassembled for spare parts.
-   During the March 1945, 16 giap lost 5 Airacobras.  In addition to those, one Airacobra was transferred to PARM.  During the same month, 16 giap received five P-39s from 21st PARM

Suhov himself scored 2 victories on February 28, three days after forced landing, obviously flying a different P-39. He scored next two victories on April 18, those were his last victories too.  Suhov is not listed among the pilots who flew bombing missions in March.  So, he may not have flown "his" beloved No 50 after February 25th. 

White disks were unusual in combat units in 1945, but Suhov?s P-39 wasn?t unique.  IMHO white disks on Suhov?s Airacobra can?t be used to prove anything.

Regards,
KL

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi,

His plane was seriously damaged, it was most likely transferred to PARM (mobile overhaul shop).  Modifications visible in the movie (bomb shackles and removed wing guns) also suggest overhaul.

If it returned from a PARM, the repainting has to be intended as definitive.  PARM would likely have utilized always the same paints for repaintings, but this is the only known one with so light blotches on its nose.
Regards
Massimo

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi Misos,
this image shows what I mean.
I've taken an ALG-1, a AMT-1, a Grau02, an ALG-5 (not too different from other greens) and I blended them in equal parts to obtain a 'baricentric' color



As you see, the resulting shade is close again to AMT-1.  I don't mean this is a proof of the use of this color, but suggests that, in absence of other informations,  it is a prudential choice, being not too far from grey, brown, green etc. Besides it is in the Soviet inventory and is similar to a lighter shade of faded OD.  I would go with this.

Regards
Massimo

[KL]

Hmmmm,  
if we start mixing Soviet and German paints, possibilities are endless...

I would go with 4BO i.e. A-24m. Standard Soviet "Protective" colour: readily available, designated for metal, found on L-L wrecks...
Regards,
KL

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi,

I would go with 4BO i.e. A-24m. Standard Soviet "Protective" colour: readily available, designated for metal, found on L-L wrecks...

But so, the darker repaintings on the rear fuselage are more or less identical to the light repaintings on the front.
Both considering Russian and German colors, it's unlikely that the lighter repainting is in any color other than light/medium grey, brown or green.
Regards
Massimo

[KL]

... it's unlikely that the lighter repainting is in any color other than light/medium grey, brown or green.

4BO is green and it is lighter than American OD...



Rear fuselage strengthening was painted with some other dark green paint.
Regards,
KL

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi, 4BO should have been common for repaintings, but the light look of the repaintings of this plane is unique. This suggests to exclude the commonly utilized colors.
Regards
Massimo

[KL]

Same yellow-green here: