Suchov's p-39 White 50

[Massimo Tessitori]

But in this photo the yellow-green appears so light only over the remains of the white rectangle of the US mark.
This means that its look is influenced for trasparence by the underlying white paint.
Zooming, one can see that the same paint looks a darker green when overposed to the blue of the US mark or to the od background.
Regards
Massimo

[KL]

Detachable panels on both sides are yellow-green.  Nothing to do with US markings...

[Massimo Tessitori]

I've tried to convert it into bw.

The green appears lighter of od only where it is overposed to the white of the US mark.
I am not saying that it can't be green, of course, but it has to be lighter than this one.

[66misos]

Hi,

I made paintings on my "test" Avenger. Find attached several pictures. All used paints are listed directly in pictures.
I used acrylics Revell Black, Tamiya Olive Drab, Gunze Olive Drab, Dark Green and Neutral Grey and Akan AMT-4 and AMT-7.
Plus I used enamel Revell 87 for AMT-1 Light Brown according to http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234933995-vvs-colours-in-the-great-patriotic-war/.
After all paints were airbrushed I applied one coat of enamel Revell Matt coat to achieve same reflections from all paints.
Nose is painted black.
Photos with stone background were made on the direct sun.
Photos with light grey background were made also outside, but in the shadow.

Pict 1


Pict 2

Tamiya Olive Drab is much darker than Gunze Olive Drab. It could be appropriate for relatively new late Q versions. On b&w photo Gunze Dark green looks even lighter than Tamiya Olive drab - see right upper wing.
Tamiya Olive Drab could represent new paint, Gunze Olive Drab could represent old, strongly weathered paint.

Pict 3

Left side of the fuselage airbrushed Tamiya Olive Drab firstly and then other green and brown paints. On the tail Gunze Dark Green makes almost no difference, Akan AMT-4 looks a bit brighter, visible contrast. Akan 4BO could represent here that bright paint on the front fuselage, but neither AMT-4 nor Dark Green does not make desired contrast on the rear fuselage and the tail. Revell 87 (AMT-1 Light Brown) looks too bright, too big contrast.

Pict 4

Right side of the fuselage airbushed Gunze Olive Drab firstly and then other green and brown paints. If we trust to Sukhov's memoirs where he writes that he used the same plane for the whole period in 16GIAP, then his P-39 would be almost 3 years old, strongly weathered.
4BO Green make only a small contrast over Gunze (weathered) Olive Drab. Revell 87 (AMT-1) Light Brown could better represent bright color on the front fuselage. Plus, both AMT-4 green and Dark Green make visible darker contrast on the rear fuselage and the tail.

Pict 5


Regards,
    66misos

[KL]

Hi Massimo/Misos,
Some problems in your analysis and some comments:
1.  Black and white image created in Photoshop is not the same as black and white photo!  Conversion of a colour image to a b/w image can be manipulated and results could be very different.  You can hardly prove anything using software generated b/w images.

2.  You have two very different OD.  You assume that lighter OD is weathered - maybe, but maybe one is correct and the other one is wrong...

3.  You should use Akan AMT-1 in addition to Revell 87.  This way you will have two AMT-1, same as two ODs.  One new and one old (or one correct and one wrong).

4.  4BO and AMT-4 that I have seen in museums are lighter than Akan chip I have...  Although, 4BO on your photos looks OK...

Regards,
KL

[66misos]

Hi KL,

1.  Black and white image created in Photoshop is not the same as black and white photo!

I agree, it has limitations, a lot depends on filter and photo material. I know photos where red stars looks almost white, and elsewhere almost black. I also saw a photos showing abandoned Lagg-3 or Mig-3 photographed once by Soviets, and also by Germans. Once black/green camo is contrasted, another time the contrast is hardly visible.

2.  You have two very different OD.  You assume that lighter OD is weathered - maybe, but maybe one is correct and the other one is wrong...

This my post http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1515.msg12019#msg12019
There are tons of discussions about the right OD, similarly to VVS AMT-11/AMT-12 controversy, VVS greens etc. The Steve Zaloga's article (link attached there) has interesting outcome: "Basically, the only colour that comes close to the wartime colour is the Tamiya acrylic XF62, with the Poly Scale acrylic a distant second. Two colours fell for the old FS-595A snag, Gunze Sangyo and Model Master which are too light and vivid for wartime Olive Drab. Tamiya XF-62 - Best match for wartime colour - Should be lightened a bit with ochre. Gunze Sangyo H52 - Matches 1968 FS-595A - OK for wartime OD, a bit vivid."
Weathered OD changed color quited fast. IMHO it is necessary to ask new OD or old/weathered OD, when disputing about "right" color/shade of OD. There is not one exact OD shade/color in real life.

3.  You should use Akan AMT-1 in addition to Revell 87.  This way you will have two AMT-1, same as two ODs.  One new and one old (or one correct and one wrong).

Here http://s362974870.onlinehome.us/forums/air/index.php?showtopic=196449&st=0 is a long discussion about right color/shade of AMT-1.

Kari Lumppio: "Couple of guys gave short presentation of the albom and Soviet colours at local IPMS meeting (Helsinki). That was at some point of Autumn 1997. In any case the guys had made comparison table for the Albom samples with a number of comparison matches. One of the few (couple?) direct model paint matches given was AMT-1/Revell 87..."
So may be match is not 100% perfect but IMHO good enough. And as we seen also Akan green (AMT-4) can vary in time and between production plant.

As
regards,
   66misos

[KL]

Hi Misos,
Thanks for the OD explanations.  Zaloga's text isn't clear, but how I understand, the real WWII OD was darker and Tamiya XF62 is the only good representation of the real colour.
It looks that combination Tamiya XF62 and AKAN 4BO actually works really good in terms of contrast!
You will have to use your artistic license to age/weather XF62 to look like 2-year old Suhov's P-39...  but not to look like Gunze H-52.

Regards,
KL

[Massimo Tessitori]

If I understand well, the plane was already 3 years old and the US olive drab was notoriously prone to fading. On the museum exhibit, many of the green repaintings with Russian green are darker than the olive drab (not to speak of the color of the added plate that looks nearly black).
In the test on the model, the gunze olive drab is closer in shade to revell 87 than to any of the greens.
The movie shows clearly a lighter shade on both the sides of the nose, but none other known soviet P-39 shows the same look; this would exclude all the colors abitually used fo repaintings over olive drab, including 4BO.
AMT-1 is baricentrical between all the proposed colors, including grey, light green and brownish zinc chromate.
Now another consideration: AMT-1 was used on bombers, and this plane was adapted to carry bombs and used as a bomber after the repair. Yes, it would be the only known one.
Regards
Massimo

[KL]

If I understand well, the plane was already 3 years old and the US olive drab was notoriously prone to fading.

The plane was in service for 2 years.  Suhov was assigned to 16 giap in May 1943 and the movie was made in March 1945.  Buffalo Museum P-39 is 70 years old and it has been submerged for over half a century.

The movie shows clearly a lighter shade on both the sides of the nose, but none other known soviet P-39 shows the same look; this would exclude all the colors abitually used fo repaintings over olive drab, including 4BO.
AMT-1 is baricentrical between all the proposed colors, including grey, light green and brownish zinc chromate.
Now another consideration: AMT-1 was used on bombers, and this plane was adapted to carry bombs and used as a bomber after the repair. Yes, it would be the only known one.

It would not be the only one, in your interpretation every light colour is AMT-1

-  Your 1941 three colour Pe-2s and Il-2s include AMT-1.
-  Your 1942 "snake camouflage" Yak-7 include AMT-1.
-  Your black-green Yak-6s include strange AMT-1 fields.
-  Some of your late war Pe-2s and Tu-2s have most of their upper surfaces painted in AMT-1.

Not hard to see what is your favourite colour.  

Regards,
KL  

[66misos]

Hi KL,
P-39 deliveries to 16GIAP could last several months, so I would go for compromise 2,5 years. There is a lot of pictures showing (older/weathered) P-39s with OD quite light in comparison with blue in USAAF insignia, oil stains etc. Plus photo of Sukhov P-39 rear fuselage shows significant contrast between faded OD and dark repainting.
Sukhov's P-39 wears really bright areas. There are not many options for bright external color among VVS paints from that time period. Basically only light brown AMT-1/A-21m. White is not option in this case.
On the other side I cannot find any dark green among VVS or RA paints which could make significantly darker contrast against dark OD.

regards,
       66misos

[Massimo Tessitori]

The plane was in service for 2 years.  Suhov was assigned to 16 giap in May 1943 and the movie was made in March 1945.  Buffalo Museum P-39 is 70 years old and it has been submerged for over half a century.

The olive drab appears notoriously faded on a lot of wartime photos of US planes. 

Your 1941 three colour Pe-2s and Il-2s include AMT-1.
-  Your 1942 "snake camouflage" Yak-7 include AMT-1.
-  Your black-green Yak-6s include strange AMT-1 fields.
-  Some of your late war Pe-2s and Tu-2s have most of their upper surfaces painted in AMT-1.
Not hard to see what is your favourite colour. 

AMT-1 and AMT-11 are the only camo colors in 1941/45 period appearing clearly lighter than AMT-4 green. The difference between AMT-4 and  4BO is only marginal.
For Pe-2s and Il-2s of 1941, a light color should be chosen between a very light green, light brown and light grey. Light brown looks the most credible one. In case of doubt, AMT-1 is anyway a baricentric color between green, grey and brown, and was formulated in 1941. If it is not AMT-1, you have to explain what other color it could be.
My interpretation of the snake camouflage of Yak7/9 of Z.115 is grey/grey, something similar to AMT-11 and 12. I don't know how you've found this idea of AMT-1.
My drawings of Yak-6 are consistent with those of Vaklamov and Orlov.
Drawings of late Tu-2s and Pe-2s are an attempt to interpretate a common characteristic appearing on the most of the photos. The alternative to the light brown is AMT-11 grey, however some of the photos are dated 1944 and this would be strange. If you know what color it should be, please tell me.
Regards
Massimo

[66misos]

Hi,
I posted questions about Sukhov?s P-39 at http://vif2ne.ru/nvi/forum/0/0.htm and spent there couple of days in discussion. Here are outcomes:

1.) Version of Sukhov?s P-39
Discussion can start with the fact that it was P-39N or P-39Q. Most likely Q-15.
The wing machine guns were not in N, neither Q, nor any other "Cobras? in the Soviet Air Force during 1945. Sukhov?s memoirs - it's just a memoir, the photo shows P-39Q.

2.) New photo

posted by member of that forum shows:
   - there was no reinforcement of the rear part of the fuselage,
   - Rear part of the fuselage has original OD, stencils above white circle are still visible.
Compare it with this previous version:


3.) Repainting - basically three opinions
   - old weathered OD (bright color) was repainted by new OD (dark color),
   - old weathered OD (bright color) was repainted by German RLM-71 Dark Green,
   - old weathered OD (dark color) was repainted by unknown German paint.

Polemic about VVS paints vs. US paints:
Did IAPs/GIAPs get OD together with P-39s? I think so.
There is no reason in the regiment armed with L-L planes to use some substitutes.  Just next doors, at 129.GIAP, at the same time the same effect on the weathered planes is visible - they used fresh OD to paint some panels and white bands.
Sukhov?s plane repainted by fresh OD around cockpit and nose fuselage.
 vs.
Spots on Sukhov?s plane painted by captured German paint - seek shade in Luftwaffe palette. Moreover, only one color. Brown 100% not.
Why German paints or even US paints are more probable than standard VVS paints?
   - the US paints were not supplied,
   - the Soviet paints (here not probable), because the regiment was given a very limited amount of paint and spent it on small touch-up, not the camouflage (especially - nonstandard),
   - but the trophy German paints were available in large amounts.

Regards,
     66misos

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi Misos,
I am not fully convinced that this plane was not reinforced. I think to see a V shape and a dark round aside the head of the third man, more or less where we see similar shapes on the museum exhibit.
Regards
Massimo

[66misos]

Hi Massimo,

it was meant this: http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1515.msg11130#msg11130, the ?Reply #12?
The "V" shapeh sheet behind the right man is standard plate (thermal protection?) behind the exhaust pipes.

Plus note on that new photo also:
- branches with leaves under the horizontal stabilizer,
- thin line looking like broken antena wire.
   
66misos

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi Misos,
I see a weaker trace passing across the well visible oblique line. Clearly can't be a sheet, but seems as the trace of the remotion of a previous reinforcing plate.
Regards
Massimo