Suchov's p-39 White 50

[learstang]

Konstantin, for what it's worth, I don't recall having seen any photographs of Soviet P-39's with that green "softener" on the trailing and leading edges.

Regards,

Jason

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi,
yes, I know about the blotches of medium green on the wings and tail. I was wondering about the dark parts on the fuselage panels, outlines of the pilot's door etc.
Good photos anyway.
Regards
Massimo

[Troy Smith]

Hi Misos,
the photo of 253 is very strange. It is as if they used medium green for repaintings on all the worn parts of the plane. Couldn't it be that fresh OD and medium green are undistinguishable on this photo?
Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo

No, it seems that olive drab fades a lot more than medium green. If I remember correctly  the P-39's are from a US based training unit, hence the extensive staining and wear.   As for the darker around the door/panels, I'd suggest hand wear/grease. 

note, all this batch seem to be US based

41-28257-28406      Bell P-39D-1-BE Airacobra
            28288,28340,28367,28370,28375,28400,28402 modified
               as P-39D-4 recon variant.
            28282 crashed 3 mi SE of Petaluma, CA Sep 24, 1942.  Pilot killed.
            28290 crashed between Olema and Inverness, CA Oct 4, 1942.  Pilot killed.
            28292 crashed at Muroc Field Aug 3, 1942 while pilot was practicing general air work.  Pilot killed.
            28377 (15th FS, 53rd FG lost in training accident
               Page Field, Fl Mar 11, 1943.  Pilot bailed out OK
            28390 (53rd FG) hit parked jeep during landing 3/11/1943.

from - http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_serials/1941_4.html

there are another 3 photos of plane 253 here
http://kevsaviationpics.blogspot.co.uk/2012/03/bell-p-39d-airacobra.html

Note in the photo Konstantin posted, how the OD has faded a lot on the fabric on the ailerons and elevators, but the MG hardly a all.


One point, certainly in the case of the A-20, the medium green was applied at the factory.  I've not heard of it being applied in the field while US planes were being delivered in camouflage.

HTH
T

[KL]

... it seems that olive drab fades a lot more than medium green.

True, check here:
http://www.goldenarrowresearch.com/resources/USAAF%20Painting%20Practices%20During%20WWII.pdf

One point, certainly in the case of the A-20, the medium green was applied at the factory.  I've not heard of it being applied in the field while US planes were being delivered in camouflage.

Not my field of expertize, judging by photographic evidence only, in most cases medium green was applied in the field.  
Practice was widespread, but execution varied so much...

Some A-20s could have been camouflaged at the factory; that may explain why some VVS Bostons had medium green dapples.

cheers,
KL

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi Troy, hi all,
the B-17 is interesting. Note the OD stars of the first one.  Beside ailerons and elevators are so light... could this be due to wearing only?
Regards
Massimo

[KL]

About 20 large colour photos for Airacobra fans:

http://www.asisbiz.com/il2/P-39/Bell-P-39-Airacobra.html

[66misos]

Hi KL,
Thanx for post. Unfortunately non of them is VVS 
Regards,
     66misos

[KL]

  A nice (mostly) colour movie is available at:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbG06bNX1lE
Soviet Airacobras appear around minutes 5, 11 and 13.  Three different red star types are notable.
Regards,
KL

[66misos]

Hi,
I am back with Sukhov, as promised:  

?A bit latter I will make profiles of the both approaches, I am too busy in my work now?

SUMMARY OF DAMAGES:
1.)   20th july 1943 Sukhov performed training flight. During landing the leg of the front undercarriage was broken and plane hit the ground with the nose and damaged propeller (I found this in Tabachenko?s book when looking info about Glinka brothers).
2.)   2nd september 1943 - Sukhov attacking FW-189...Pieces flew around my plane? next day my mechanic reported: The plane is ready to fly!
3.)   25th February 1945 - My plane is hit. A fire erupted on my fighter... flame is not throbbing now, only a thin stream of smoke coming out from the holes on the plane...I counted seven holes from 20-mm shells...

Damage repainting after the first two incidents were done most probably with Soviet paints. However the third accident happened when Pokryshkin's regiment was based at Aslau airfield, where one very large assembly hangar, four more very large hangars and one large repair hangar were? A group of workshop and stores buildings were located in the hangar area, and there was a further group of workshops?
More about Fw-190A-9 production in Aslau is here http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1515.msg13218#msg13218
So surely there was not big problem to find enough German paints for one P-39 in this huge production facility. Question is what paint they could use.

GERMAN PAINTING SUMMARY:
- September 1944 - 75 Grauviolett /83 Dunkelgr?n (Dark Green) scheme for the Fw 190 D-9, replacing previous 74/75 scheme.
   First operational use of the Dora took place in early October 1944, camouflaged in the 75/83 scheme?
- early 1945 - change from the standard 75/83 scheme to the 81 Braunviolett (Brown-Violet) /82 Hellgr?n (Bright Green) combination. It is most probable that a variety of transition schemes existed (e.g., 81/83, 82/83, 75/81, etc.) leveraging old stocks.

Repanting on the sides and front fuselage of Sukhov's P-39 is noticeable brighter than faded Olive Drab from different angles and times, so it is not only matter of the fresh semi-gloss paint reflection - possible candidates are 75 Grauviolett or 82 Hellgr?n (Bright Green).  81 Braunviolett or 83 Dunkelgr?n (Dark Green) are too darks. They could be good candidate for the nose repainting. 76 either Lichtblau or Weissblau seems to be OK for underwings.

The colors of the German paints are taken from http://www.ipmsstockholm.org/colorcharts/stuff_eng_colorcharts_germany.htm.

75 Grauviolett is quite similar to Igor Zlobin?s grey version at http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1515.msg11098#msg11098.

Regards,
    66misos

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi Misos,
looks likely enough. Here is a bw version of your drawing:

My preferred one is the first, both because green looks, at least nominally, a good replacement for olive drab, both because it was surely in use at that date.
Regards
Massimo

[66misos]

Hi Massimo,

16GIAP reached Aslau base sometime at the beginning of February 1945. There is no mention about long fights to get this base, it was moreles abandoned when 16GIAP got there. I wonder it Germans on Aslau base already got new paints for new 81/82 scheme.

From this perspective "old" Grauviolett from the previous 75/83 scheme seems to be more probable. Or Russian A-21m light yellowish brown, which is also bright enough.

regards,
    66misos

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi Misos,
I see.
Regards
Massimo

[66misos]

Hi,
inspired by Massimo's colored pictures on his Mig3 pages I tried to color a simple picture.
Here is my first attempt to color bw photo:

Front part of the tail seems to be different color. I overlaid it with the pictures of two other Cobras with tail numbers and distorted them to maximally fit this picture. Although tail numbers are in different positions, in both cases they should be visible, if painted on Sukhov's plane on this photo. So I repainted front part of the tail and number with AMT-4 green.
I know, it is far from Massimo's work, here is a lot of imperfections and missing details, but I quite like it I like to see this photo in color.
Your comments are appreciated.
Regards,
   66misos

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi Misos,
it's technically well made. Pity for the lack of the men, else it could have been a beautiful photo to show. About the light color, have you left the same hue of the olive drab?
It's possible to delete some of the white dots.
The 50 doesn't look of the same white of the disk, do you think it's silver, or simply badly painted?
Regards
Massimo

[66misos]

Hi Massimo,
thanx I have this photo in this better quality only without pilots. Pilots are on the poor quality photo. What light color do you mean. All OD has one common settings.
"50" and white circle are surely different whites. White circle was painted (sprayed over mask) precious still in US while "50" was brushed in SU. Silver color is interesting idea. Anyhow I have to check whether I did something wrong in layers when masking it
Regards,
   66misos